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1975 Gottlieb Sure Shot

icanswim70

New Member
Jun 13, 2016
18
1
3
Kingston
Hey everyone, i figured i'd start a new thread on here, specifically for my pin. I've posted like a fiend on maaca and pinside, but no one is replying, i must smell or something, even from their end!

Anyways, as its been said my sure shot doesnt start. I checked the switches by the stepper motor, filed most, and it actually looks pretty good. Now onto the relays, which kinda look like a bomb hit them.

The S relay is jammed (the block holding the swittches in place to be closed is stuck) and a switch has popped out of the block. 2 other relays are also jammed, (left hole relay and tilt i believe).

Does anyone know how to fix this? Can it be repaired or does the block need to be replaced? If so how do you do that? Also, the blocksare plastic, not wood, which i'm being told are more fragile and break easily

You can see my other threads here

http://www.maaca.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=20965

and pinside

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1976-gottlieb-sure-shot-coin-mechanism
 

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Menace

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Nov 14, 2012
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255
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Santiago de Aurora
Where you're not located near any tech's the first thing you will need is the schematics for the game (if you don't already have them). Then I would suggest reading and then re-reading the following; http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair

I'm pretty sure with that link and a little pateince you can get this issue sorted out. You will likely have to order some parts from the various suppliers, but don't be afraid to work on it yourself. Just take your time.

D
 

icanswim70

New Member
Jun 13, 2016
18
1
3
Kingston
OMG!!!! So i reclipped all the relays back onto the bank, ensured all the switch stacks were adjusted, AND THE MOTOR STARTED RUNNING!!!! Now, it ran until i unplugged the machine. When i plugged it back in it didn't run anymore... Culprits?
 

websherpa

Active Member
Feb 10, 2013
280
53
28
60
Waterdown, ON
When it comes to troubleshooting EMs, you need to take it somewhat systematically (I'm no expert on specific "tricks" to identify problems but I have troubleshooted enough of them to understand the basics).

It helps to understand how to trace a circuit using an Ohm meter (you clip one end at a certain point in the circuit sequence as you follow the startup and see if you can find an open circuit or a high resistance). But that requires a bit of experience, schematics, and know the order that everything happens in.

First rule of thumb is NEVER clean switches until it's all working, and then clean and test in sections so that if something goes wrong you'll know the area you last worked on. Very often people start out with a non-working EM and think "If I just clean all the contacts, it should work." Problem with this approach is that you often just introduce multiple issues. Always get a machine troubleshooted in sequence of how it starts, or address the most likely suspects first so that it is at least operating correctly, and THEN go back and do the fine tuning and cleaning that may make it sing.

What happens very often when you file contacts is that grit remains between the pads keeping them apart enough not to contact, or just enough to create additional resistance (that combines with other issues to form an artificial disconnect). You need to run a rough piece of card stock paper between the contacts after filing to clean them (or blow them out with a "little" air, a LOT of air can move switches out of position in their stacks). Also, very often switches "jump tracks" in the switch stacks due to mishandling or a bump or caught shirt here and there. So go back to those stacks you adjusted, get down with a good light and manually rock them back and forth to make sure they are all contacting and un-contacting as they should. If you see a pair that is ALWAYS closed, or ALWAYS open, then you know that one of the switch leaves isn't in the right rung of the stack ladder. While you are down there, check that there aren't any loose wires or solder joints.

A set of schematics is also useful because they will show the anticipated relay positions (determined by which switches are open and closed) at the start of the first ball after a credit has been used ( I think, it's something I am plucking from my now faulty 50+ year old memory.)

You said that the tilt relay was potentially out of whack. If the motor runs through a cycle and then won't start again or accept a credit, you should check the slam switches and the tilt relay and circuitry, and then the credit circuitry and credit reel and associated switches and relays.

What does also often happen is that the motor gets to a part of a sequence where it expects a switch to be thrown, but it isn't, stopping the sequence in its tracks. Number one culprit, shrunken switch spacers. There is no harm in tightening the switches in their blocks to take up any slack introduced by this shrinkage (although sometimes, especially for the timing switches around the motor, you may have some gapping adjustments to do.

Usually what you do is start there, and with power off, manually take the main start motor through it's rotation and watch all the switches carefully until you see one that "should" be contacting, but isn't, then make an adjustment so it contacts at the right time. Then try restarting the machine. Occasionally you have to manually throw one of the start or tilt relays to get the sequence started again. Vague, I know, it's been a while since I've done an EM.

Getting to your specific issue, often the motor runs (and won't stop) because the machine is trying to reset the score reels and since those relays and their corresponding rotary contacts are always in motion, they do tend to go out of spec. Even if the reel says "0" in the window, it's zero switch may not be contacting.

Read https://havepinwilltravel.wordpress.com/intro-to-em-pinball-machines-and-their-schematics/

and then read and re-read: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm too.

It took me Clay's resource, a course in early electronics (from decades in my past) and a couple books written on the subject of EMs to really get into the whole aspect of switch relays and their intended sequences in EMs. ;-)
 

websherpa

Active Member
Feb 10, 2013
280
53
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Waterdown, ON
P.S. Menace: I still have that Puck Bowler (with its thousands of switches) waiting in storage to be troubleshooted and put back into service. How many years has it been? Must be AT LEAST 8-10!?
 
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websherpa

Active Member
Feb 10, 2013
280
53
28
60
Waterdown, ON
PPS icanswim70: If the machine's motor wouldn't run, it was likely stuck at the part of the sequence where it is expecting a switch to be mated somewhere but isn't, and then when you fiddled with the relays you moved the sequence further along by putting one of the relays out of the position (open or closed) where it was when the machine was stopped, and so the motor started up again, trying to re-complete it's sequence (again and again because a switch isn't being thrown to stop the sequence), and when you unplug the machine you de-energize the magnetic two coil relays and that resets them, coming, once again to a stop at the point where there is a switch somewhere not contacting that is supposed to run the motor to it's next logical point in the start sequence.


P.S. EM collectors mostly get their machines from owners who never master the "logic" requirements for EM repair but try until they are frustrated (or never try). I've picked up machines that haven't worked in decades only to find one switch out of it's stack ladder, or one timing switch on the start motor misaligned, and then others where there's 4 or five issues (those came from the previous owners who tried to master the Zen of EM and failed.)
 
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icanswim70

New Member
Jun 13, 2016
18
1
3
Kingston
Next problem... By shorting the s relay i can get the score motor to run continuously. While inspecting the banks, I noticed none of the other relays were pulling in, so no other jobs started. How do you troubleshoot relays not starting?