Hey guys with the rumoured JJP Toy Story coming out soon and rumoured 12k for just the LE, are we in a slippery territory? That translate to approx 17k for an LE, and if you want a Toy Story that's the only model you're basically getting in Canada. I don't see people purchasing this pin for 17k plus and be able to unload it later for 17k or more. I may be in the wrong, but I see it as very difficult to pay 17k for a pin. I always limit my purchase to 9k, and if anything is ever over 9k, I just pass on it. With the exception of a dream theme (GnR) I bought new in box, it was insane for me to spend 15k on that one and will never do it again. How does everyone else feel? I believe with JJP moving the needle up again, from GnR LE last year being 9,500 to Toy Story being 12k this year, I can see Stern also just increasing the price because they can and see other companies pushing the limits. I'm sure this has been discussed plenty of times, just super shocked it has reached this point, especially with markets crashing and a recession on the horizon and cost of living being at an all time high, I don't see why people would fork over EVEN more money for overpriced machines to begin with. We shall see.
Have prices gone too far?
- Thread starter Flipper Ripper
- Start date
What’s gone too far is the people treating this hobby as a quick money making scheme. As long as folks can flip NIB games for profit manufacturers will keep rising prices. No surprise there as the manufacturer is missing out on potential profit. It’s a business.
It’s the people that are only in it because they think they can recover all their expenses or even make a profit but in reality can’t really afford it that will hurt the most when they sell for less than they paid, which is normal BTW. Things depreciate over time.
Folks that just got into the hobby have unrealistic expectations about profit and things will inevitably get back to “normal”, which will be a shock to some.
If we do end up in a full blown recession these toys will become irrelevant for a lot of folks. Gas in the tank and food on the table will become the priority.
It’s the people that are only in it because they think they can recover all their expenses or even make a profit but in reality can’t really afford it that will hurt the most when they sell for less than they paid, which is normal BTW. Things depreciate over time.
Folks that just got into the hobby have unrealistic expectations about profit and things will inevitably get back to “normal”, which will be a shock to some.
If we do end up in a full blown recession these toys will become irrelevant for a lot of folks. Gas in the tank and food on the table will become the priority.
Yah the issue is, prices don't usually roll back so as they push the envelope, that's the new norm, the new baseline. I feel like pinball companies have just been increasing prices quarterly it seems. They are making machines more expensive and putting what seems like subjectively less in them. Do pinball companies just see their audience as fools? I think so, many people are purchasing these things sight unseen, never touched one and on top of that incomplete code. Factor in, some of these companies have notorious issues with their machines that they refuse to resolve and as prices increase, the warranty decreases. I just find it funny that people start foaming at the mouth for the next new more expensive pin with less warranty from manufacturers that take no accountability in their product and deliver an unfinished machine with no guarantee of ever finishing the code. It's all insane, and I'm glad I'm on the outside looking in, just thought the insanity would be over by now and people would soon realize this, but I guess a sucker is born every minute, and I guess I can not continue enjoying this hobby as I am priced out. We the people can speak with our wallets and let them know we aren't going to take it, but maybe I'm a minority and my views are not shared among the masses. Also find it funny that record prices of pinball machines coming out in the face of recession. All the markets are crashing. Good luck out there!
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What do you think the CEs are going to cost? Most buyers of these games can afford any price tag, they will sell out the same day at any price. I know collectors that want a Toy Story CE but can’t get one as the lists are too long.
Rumour is 15k USD which translates to 22k CDN with tax. That's insane. Good for people that have that kind of money, but the outside world looking in, if I told anyone I spent 22k on a glorified computer, they would laugh at me, they have a hard enough time believing I spend 9k on a pin and think I'm crazy.
I remember back in the day or in 2011 when my first new in box Stern cost me $4390+HST from Brock 
Which is why back then if you were going to ask $5000 for your above average TZ with no fade people would think you were nuts and rather just go the new in box route. But as the prices of new pins went up it also drove up drive the prices of older pins up as well. Another bad thing that happened for older games was if someone listed their older 90's WPC for stupid $x amount and got it this would then in turn set the bar for the next person selling the same title for $x+more potentially because theirs had more mods done to it. When I first got into this hobby I (tried) to set a hard cap of no more then $1500-2000 per game because anything more then that was just crazy. It didn't take me long to get desensitized and pretty soon I was hovering around the $3000-3500 range and not even batting an eye or losing any sleep over pulling the trigger. I also never thought I would break the $10k threshold but did with my HUO MM back in 2014. Today I'm sitting with 3 Stern premiums > $12k in my collection... so much for my hard cap lol
I'm also finding today there are some people willing to overpay just to get a particular title whether it be new or old right now. I know of two used HUO Godzilla LE that went for $19k and $21k in the past 4-6 months. It's no wonder now we are starting to get curbside speculators who just get on the next list for LEs in hopes to flip their spot or pin. I honestly thought once new pins hit the $9-10k mark for new games that was going to be it and couldn't see the market go any higher. I guess I was wrong because every new title whether it be from JJP or Stern they would increase the price a little bit while not improving quality or value imo. As long as we buy it these manufacturers will build it and until we stop they will keep raising their prices I think.
Which is why back then if you were going to ask $5000 for your above average TZ with no fade people would think you were nuts and rather just go the new in box route. But as the prices of new pins went up it also drove up drive the prices of older pins up as well. Another bad thing that happened for older games was if someone listed their older 90's WPC for stupid $x amount and got it this would then in turn set the bar for the next person selling the same title for $x+more potentially because theirs had more mods done to it. When I first got into this hobby I (tried) to set a hard cap of no more then $1500-2000 per game because anything more then that was just crazy. It didn't take me long to get desensitized and pretty soon I was hovering around the $3000-3500 range and not even batting an eye or losing any sleep over pulling the trigger. I also never thought I would break the $10k threshold but did with my HUO MM back in 2014. Today I'm sitting with 3 Stern premiums > $12k in my collection... so much for my hard cap lol
I'm also finding today there are some people willing to overpay just to get a particular title whether it be new or old right now. I know of two used HUO Godzilla LE that went for $19k and $21k in the past 4-6 months. It's no wonder now we are starting to get curbside speculators who just get on the next list for LEs in hopes to flip their spot or pin. I honestly thought once new pins hit the $9-10k mark for new games that was going to be it and couldn't see the market go any higher. I guess I was wrong because every new title whether it be from JJP or Stern they would increase the price a little bit while not improving quality or value imo. As long as we buy it these manufacturers will build it and until we stop they will keep raising their prices I think.
I will say I wish I never listened to my older and probably wiser pinball collector friends who told me to steer clear from an MM for $6500 in 2011-12. They kept saying that is too much and you will never be able to get your money out of it because market is going to crash. Fast forward 2 years later in 2014 I paid almost double of that for my current MM just as MMR was also announced at Expo that year. I thought about getting on list for MMR for $8999usd but who knows if MMR production was ever going to make it off the ground. I think previous remake attempts like Big Bang Bar never came to fruition or didn't wanna get caught up in messes like Skit-B or Jpoop pipe dreams. I took a gamble by overpaying for my original HUO MM at the time because I could have had an MMR for around $10,500cdn all in since the Canadian dollar was pretty much at par. It was pretty much one of my last bucket WPC pin to own and figure if MMR ever did become a reality then worse case I would take a hit and match MMR at $10.5k if the game didn't live up to my expectations. So far so good and still have game and think I could get back what I paid if not a bit more to the right collector who might value owning a nice original example with some tasteful mods like chrome trim, shaker motor, alternate translite and artblades by Bryan Allen.
Yah I have a cap and stick to it. Doesn't bother me as it's one less customer for pin manufacturers. If others follow along, pinball makers will have to lower the price or go out of business. I'm okay with that, greed will eventually cost them. What I know about this hobby is a lot of people want the price increases. They want it to continue so their older pins continue to be worth more and can sell it to purchase new shiny machine, but that will also run out, it will squeeze people out and your audience will get smaller and smaller and you will be stuck with pins or lose money on them and no one in these forums wants to hear that, but it will happen, especially with current financial markets.
dos.reboot
Well-Known Member
This logic only works if you been collecting a while and have a bit of "pin equity" in your game.
It's a double edged sword, right now anyone who bought an older machine recently would have paid current market value and when they purchase their new shiny machine they will be paying current market value for that too. It's funny how the pinball market has kind of mirrored the real estate market for the last 15-20 years.
I can't see it stopping or crashing too badly and unless someone today is desperate for cash they will just keep their pins till the economy gets better. So far things look pretty strong as I noticed a Deadpool Premium sold in a day for $13.5k last week
It's funny I just watched that "special when lit" documentary on youtube and it was from 2009. They talked about how Stern was the only pinball company still alive and one guy said he expected the entire hobby to be dead in 10-15 years...
I guess you have to ask yourself if a world where new machines are no longer being manufactured but you can get some used machines for a good price is better than what we have today.
Just like real esetate inflation is part of the equation but supply and demand probably plays a bigger role. There are simply more people who want pins than there are pins to go around and it's possible if more players get into the game and production starts to meet demand we could see prices level off or go down. I think that's a preferable outcome to just about any.
And I'll add one good aspect of prices going up or staying up is that you can buy pins without too much risk. It's not like buying a playstation 5 where it will eventually age out and become obsolete, and it's not like a car that loses half of its value the second you drive it. If you put money into a pin it's pretty likely you'll get it back. For me at least, this makes the big price tag a lot easier to swallow.
I guess you have to ask yourself if a world where new machines are no longer being manufactured but you can get some used machines for a good price is better than what we have today.
Just like real esetate inflation is part of the equation but supply and demand probably plays a bigger role. There are simply more people who want pins than there are pins to go around and it's possible if more players get into the game and production starts to meet demand we could see prices level off or go down. I think that's a preferable outcome to just about any.
And I'll add one good aspect of prices going up or staying up is that you can buy pins without too much risk. It's not like buying a playstation 5 where it will eventually age out and become obsolete, and it's not like a car that loses half of its value the second you drive it. If you put money into a pin it's pretty likely you'll get it back. For me at least, this makes the big price tag a lot easier to swallow.
Hammerhead
Well-Known Member
Yep, that is correct. After we got done watching the doc we had to look up what year it was from, didn't realize it was already over 10 years old and that prediction had been so off. I don't really fault him though, A lot of people probably saw the retro gaming boom coming but I doubt a lot predicted pinball would have a resurgence.
I'm still not actually sure what has been driving the comeback for pinball. I have only been into it for about 2 years myself and what got me interested was just randomly playing a pin at my bosses house and finding it fascinating. What is driving the overall market is not clear to me other than maybe the barcade becoming a thing and including pins.
Damn. Getaway is the one machine I've thought about selling/trading... but I want a TNG, and really don't want to get it down the damn stairs. LOL.
"Americana" doesn't die...
Cars - Classic, sports, practical
Tech - Computers and Cell Phones
Sports - Modern heroes and player fav's
Music - Jazz - Blues - R&R - Rap - Hip Hop
Comics - From Strips to Books to Graphic novels
Media - Hollywood, TV, Radio, Disney + so much more
Pinball - Woodrails, Bingo, EM, SS, DMD to the Modern day
The "Seven Stalwarts" as I call them - In an "obtuse derivative meaning" of modern collectibles in NA + beyond.
The rest of the world "invented" so much more before the "new continent" did or was even present on the world stage.
A lot of these things that I mention above are "uniquely North American" in origin. "Americana - collectible (or at the minimum, are claimed to be)
You can argue the "finer points of": their real "Beginnings" of course: but pinball is and will be "small production" runs in the grander scheme of things.
Cars - Classic, sports, practical
Tech - Computers and Cell Phones
Sports - Modern heroes and player fav's
Music - Jazz - Blues - R&R - Rap - Hip Hop
Comics - From Strips to Books to Graphic novels
Media - Hollywood, TV, Radio, Disney + so much more
Pinball - Woodrails, Bingo, EM, SS, DMD to the Modern day
The "Seven Stalwarts" as I call them - In an "obtuse derivative meaning" of modern collectibles in NA + beyond.
The rest of the world "invented" so much more before the "new continent" did or was even present on the world stage.
A lot of these things that I mention above are "uniquely North American" in origin. "Americana - collectible (or at the minimum, are claimed to be)
You can argue the "finer points of": their real "Beginnings" of course: but pinball is and will be "small production" runs in the grander scheme of things.
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I got a STTNG and not looking forward to bringing it up the damn stairs should a Rush Premium become available to me from P1 lol
Yes they have gone too far. Hey if someone is actually willing to pay $10k for a fu@$&ng Congo I may have a $13k STTNG for them….
Speaking of that ad… If I had a friend asking me to list a $10k Congo for them I would tell them to get bent and list it themselves. From the description, since no pics are provided, all I can envision is this:
Speaking of that ad… If I had a friend asking me to list a $10k Congo for them I would tell them to get bent and list it themselves. From the description, since no pics are provided, all I can envision is this:
Attachments
Pictures are there and you just have to click on the link: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0gGdPblXG8xGyJ
It does look like a nice example and not a fan of all the mods done to it myself. Also not quite sure Congo is a $10k game (yet?) and I know last one sold for about $6500 locally here but then again what do I know as my old Judge Dredd listed and sold for $6250 when I sold it for $4200 4 months before that. It's not pinflation and I knew I could have sold for a bit more but I thought I would help a friend out with their first pin purchase.
Saw the pics now. Just as I thought.. It's still just a Congo...
JD and Congo are about the same value (according to sold games on Pinside). Throwing 2500$ worth of mods in a game doesn't increase it's value by that much (or more). I have over 3000$ of mods in my WOZ and certainly don't think it makes it worth 3000$ over market value. I'd be lucky to get any of that money back if I were to sell it.