mitch_a
Active Member
Just got a email from kevin to only my email addressed to me personally saying a refund is coming in the next couple days.
Skit-B Sh*t Storm
- Thread starter Kazowi
- Start date
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
DRANO
Super Member
I have exchanged positive emails with Kevin as well as opened a claim with Visa.
Although there are certain time limitations and some of my money was paid beyond that limit, having written acknowledgement from Kevin that those monies were taken and are owed, strengthens the claim for the larger amount.
Fingers crossed. I'd rather get a USD full refund from Kevin than a CAD$ 2013-2014 equivalent from the bank.
Although there are certain time limitations and some of my money was paid beyond that limit, having written acknowledgement from Kevin that those monies were taken and are owed, strengthens the claim for the larger amount.
Fingers crossed. I'd rather get a USD full refund from Kevin than a CAD$ 2013-2014 equivalent from the bank.
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websherpa
Active Member
In a just world, Skit B owning up and returning deposits (and FOX encouraging him to do same to rectify the situation, if that is possible) would be the "slightly less than" ideal solution at this point (being able to finish the project and deliver would have been the ideal one). Fingers crossed that you all get your returns. I wonder if Fox will insist on a "Record of Destruction" for the prototype(s), plastics and software? At this point whatever controversy and news there has been seems to have enhanced the value of the Predator IP.
stiffler4444
Active Member
Wonder what the fallout is for back alley creations, didn't they produce the required playfield parts?
Chris Bardon
Well-Known Member
Good question-they're probably not going to be legally liable for anything, but if they produced a bunch of parts and hadn't been paid for them, that really sucks.
This whole thing is just a shitty situation that probably could have been resolved if the people involved had just gone about things in the right way from the get go. I still don't think licenses are unattainable, although I can completely buy that dealing with license holders isn't what someone that just wants to make a pinball machine wants to do. That being said, it's a necessary evil if a-you want to make a game with someone else's IP, and b-not make it for anything but your own personal use. From what had been shown of the game, it looked solid, and I thouht that things like having individual logins for the game was a really great idea that other companies should steal immediately (so far all I've heard is that multimorphic is).
stiffler4444
Active Member
DRANO
Super Member
I would imagine Kevin would want to keep his ass out of further legal action and either keep or destroy the game.
I know which one I would do if I were him.
I wouldn't want to see that thing ever again.
And, in hindsight, the idea that a couple of regular Joe's with no experience or a real company behind them could finagle a deal with a corporation like FOX does seem incredulous. Funny how we all believe what we want to believe.
This idea of a "family friend" with connections helping them out with the licensing wsa just enough to make it seem plausible
I know which one I would do if I were him.
I wouldn't want to see that thing ever again.
And, in hindsight, the idea that a couple of regular Joe's with no experience or a real company behind them could finagle a deal with a corporation like FOX does seem incredulous. Funny how we all believe what we want to believe.
This idea of a "family friend" with connections helping them out with the licensing wsa just enough to make it seem plausible
I have yet to receive any personalized email reply from Kevin about a refund, and I've sent a couple emails about it...
I spoke with my CC company and they explained all disputes must be filed within 100 days of the transaction, but in this case if I can provide them an email from Kevin stating an expected delivery date of the game or an email stating a refund date, then they would begin the 100 days to dispute from either of those dates.
With the email we received last night from Kevin about the refunds, I'm hoping that will suffice should the refunds not come through from Kevin and I have to proceed with a CC dispute.
I'm dissapointed with how this has played out, but it is what it is. Hopefully all the pre-order people can re-coup their deposits and we can all move on.
D
I spoke with my CC company and they explained all disputes must be filed within 100 days of the transaction, but in this case if I can provide them an email from Kevin stating an expected delivery date of the game or an email stating a refund date, then they would begin the 100 days to dispute from either of those dates.
With the email we received last night from Kevin about the refunds, I'm hoping that will suffice should the refunds not come through from Kevin and I have to proceed with a CC dispute.
I'm dissapointed with how this has played out, but it is what it is. Hopefully all the pre-order people can re-coup their deposits and we can all move on.
D
DRANO
Super Member
It should also be noted that every CC company will have different policies and the dates will vary for everyone according to when your payments were actually made.
Visa informed me that their normal cut-off is about 150 days, but this case would fall under a special circumstance in which they are allowed to extend that to about 1.5 years.
I made 2 large payments. One fell within this time period and another outside of it. Having a personal email from Kevin verifying all my payments was helpful towards my claim for both payments, but still at the discretion of Visa international.
Also, getting an admission that the game's delivery was being pushed up and still in progress was also something they looked for... and the most current date that those statements were made would be the date they worked from.
In an email dated March 18, Kevin stated he was moving production to a profissional manufacturer and the "people would get their games soon"
Not exactly a hard date,but still demonstrates a continued shifting of delivery dates that helps build a case of longer than normal wait times.
I had to collect 20 pages worth of material and FAX it off to Visa disputes! That was fun
Just praying Kevin comes through.
Visa informed me that their normal cut-off is about 150 days, but this case would fall under a special circumstance in which they are allowed to extend that to about 1.5 years.
I made 2 large payments. One fell within this time period and another outside of it. Having a personal email from Kevin verifying all my payments was helpful towards my claim for both payments, but still at the discretion of Visa international.
Also, getting an admission that the game's delivery was being pushed up and still in progress was also something they looked for... and the most current date that those statements were made would be the date they worked from.
In an email dated March 18, Kevin stated he was moving production to a profissional manufacturer and the "people would get their games soon"
Not exactly a hard date,but still demonstrates a continued shifting of delivery dates that helps build a case of longer than normal wait times.
I had to collect 20 pages worth of material and FAX it off to Visa disputes! That was fun
Just praying Kevin comes through.
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Me too. I'd rather have the refund directly from Kevin. Not only will it be easier, but it will allow Kevin to save some face at the same time. (although how much face saving will vary from person to person)
D
D
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
At this point with all the evidence that exists it's his only option, forget face saving, it his only option for life saving. If he doesn't return the full amount or at the very minimum most of it having to fight 200+ people in legal battles would ruin him. I'm not even talking actual court battles but it seems like most have paid this on their credit card, so it won't be us personally going after him, it will either be someone big like Paypal, Mastercard, Visa, or AMEX leading the charge and once that happens...... I wouldn't want to have to try and recover from that.
The only question I'd actually like to get answered is:
What was he thinking! Seriously!
Lying to everyone and committing actual Fraud. I can't even grasp how if he didn't have the license how he thought he would get away with it. The project would never have gotten of the ground if the answer to the question of "Do you have the license? was No.
It's not like Predator is some dated dead license either, forgot the fact that maybe they haven't made a movie in a couple decades, but the IP is still alive and kicking 100%, hell Predator just got added to the lineup in the new Mortal Kombat X game.
It just boggles my mind that someone who seemed so genuine in an effort to create a boutique pinball machine could be:
A) So fucking stupid
B) So fucking Oblivious to the consequences
C) So fucking naive to think no one would figure it out
luch
Super Member
I think it started off like this:
Hey, I'm going to make a little homebrew game based on Predator. Posts it up on Pinside and people go nuts over it.
Well, why don't I make a few homebrew games, not just for myself.
I'll just charge people what it costs me to make them. Since I'm not making any "profit" on these games, I'm a "non-profit" organization.
Pinside explodes with demand for this game.
Umm, yeah, I can just make these homebrew machines one at a time and sell em to my pinball buddies.
No one's gonna find out about what I'm doing, outside of this hobby...
Hey, I'm going to make a little homebrew game based on Predator. Posts it up on Pinside and people go nuts over it.
Well, why don't I make a few homebrew games, not just for myself.
I'll just charge people what it costs me to make them. Since I'm not making any "profit" on these games, I'm a "non-profit" organization.
Pinside explodes with demand for this game.
Umm, yeah, I can just make these homebrew machines one at a time and sell em to my pinball buddies.
No one's gonna find out about what I'm doing, outside of this hobby...
Chris Bardon
Well-Known Member
And you know what-if he'd delivered games on time, then it probably would have worked, or at least worked to the extent that games would have made it to buyers. Whether Fox found out after the fact or not is a different story, but since they seem to have been oblivious until they were notified by the group of pinsiders, it could very well have stayed that way. Now, if/when they DID find out, there'd be hell to pay, and Kevin would have been in a world of trouble, so probably way better for him that this came to a head now. The fact that "SkitB pinball" still existed after predator tells me that he didn't go and set up a new company that would only handle Predator production, and would cease to exist (or have any assets) after the games were out the door, which might have been a way to try to shield himself from potential future legal reprecussions. Not sure what it would have meant for owners of the "counterfeit" machines, but I suspect that it'd all be on SkitB for damages at that point, since owners would have had no idea that what they were buying wasn't genuine.
Again though, it's not like the license would have been unobtainable. Nether Realm, Dark Horse Comics, ThinkGeek...all these companies have done licensing deals for Predator IP, and there are probably dozens more out there. It's probably not easy to deal with, but if you don't want to deal with it, come up with your own alien designs, and create a "Hunter" pinball that's a thinly veiled Predator knockoff (hell, lean into it like a Gottleib/Premier game would)
Vengeance
Well-Known Member
I don't buy that.
I didn't know Kevin from a hole in the wall until he started shopping the game around at shows.
He wouldn't have been shopping it around if he wasn't looking for people to invest in it, and no one would have invested in it if he had of said he didn't have a license.
DRANO
Super Member
Lots of guys bring one-off games to shows with little to no intention of production... just to showcase what they've done.
But, I'll agree that this didn't feel like that. These guys were actively marketing the game for sure and driving all over the country to do it.