Bowen vs the Cannon

[Vengeance]

An example of what make for an terrible tournament game (thankfully fixed)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXLA_DbFQ_4&hd=1[/youtube]

 

[REVOLUTION]

don't have time to watch it now but is this the software exploit that had Lyman freaking out?

 

[Vengeance]

don't have time to watch it now but is this the software exploit that had Lyman freaking out?

This would be it :lol:

I actually watched this exact game live and in person it was BORING as shit

But yes the most amusing part of this was how pissed Lyman was that this existed and he made a point of making sure it was fixed in the most recent release.

 

[REVOLUTION]

... and you "pros" don't consider this cheating?

 

[Vengeance]

... and you "pros" don't consider this cheating?

It's not cheating, after I saw Bowen, and Trent and a couple other guys attempt it, I tried it myself, I don't have the consistency required to perform this as effectively as Bowen did.

It's an exploit for sure, no different then those that exist in TOTAN, No Fear, Judge Dredd, etc... But it still takes skill to be able to perform them properly.

The thing is, with some many machines out there to play, why pick the ones where these kinds of exploits exist. It makes for incredibly boring pinball.

 

[Menace]

At least the exploit has been addressed.

D

 

[cooke]

Can you please explain the NF exploit?

 

[RJW]

Since all the major points are in the last three modes, if you were playing strictly for points you could just
start the first 5 modes, trap the ball and let them time out.

 

[Vengeance]

Can you please explain the NF exploit?

Since all the major points are in the last three modes, if you were playing strictly for points you could just
start the first 5 modes, trap the ball and let them time out.

Yes and No, that is one of the problems with No Fear, but the code compensates for that the timer on the mode stops if you are just holding the flipper so you are required to flip and hit some switch in order to get the timer moving again. So while that is possible, it's not always the most viable strategy since it's all or nothing, you are either going to get there are get lots of points or fail and get nothing.

The main issue with No Fear is very similar to the ACDC issue, it's called "Jump Ramp All Day"

Since there is 0 risk when going after the jump ramp, players continually shoot the jump ramp over and over again, with a maximum value of 25 million per shot, and every single shot even if you miss a jump returns to either a left or right flipper, you can liberality just shoot the jump ramp all day, and rack up a huge score. Even toss a mode in there if you like and then just got back to shooting the jump ramp so the timer will count down. It makes for a very boring tournament game and just becomes a game of attrition, who can shoot the jump ramp the most.

 

[superjackpot]

... and you "pros" don't consider this cheating?

It's not cheating ...

Technically, if the game is not broken I don't think it can be called cheating. Is it 'ethical' is another question. Was the game meant to be played like this?

To me it is similar, in principle, to something I noticed earlier this year when I was first introduced to papa videos and started watching expert tournament players (game play and tutorials). Certain players would consistently hold one or two balls on a flipper during multiball and knock around the loose single ball with the free flipper scoring 'multiball' points. While I don't call it cheating, I was extremely disappointed when I saw this. This as an affront to the concept of multiball. Where's the challenge in that? Ya, ya, I know... cradle separation when the balls inevitably all pile up... knowing when to let go just save the loose ball... reading the play to know when just the one flipper is enough... Sure, there's skill there, but keeping all balls moving is more challenging, and more fun.

In my recent TOPL experiences, I see this as well, and on occasion I have tried to force myself to play this way, just to level the playing field. But do I feel right about doing it? Nope. I feel I'm taking the easy way out, but that's just me

You are allowed to do whatever the flipper buttons, tilt settings and ruleset allow you to... but it's still a game to be enjoyed. I'm sure Bowen had a thrilling time racking up that score. I hope it was done only to illustrate a point.

P.S. And just because the tilt mech is broken doesn't mean you should move a game 2 feet sideways to save an outlane drain :mrgreen:

 

[REVOLUTION]

Well said, Barry

it's a matter of whether you play for points or for "fun". Doing the same repetitive motion over and over isn't fun to me, but that obviously doesn't matter when a tournament championship is at stake. There it's "eat or be eaten", and I get that.. not my cup of tea though.

 

[SquidVicious]

Ball control and exploiting a weakness are somewhat different .. in a way craddling a single ball to stop it moving to make the next shot easier would also be a 'cheat' then, just about all players will craddle sometimes during a multiball .. many of the top guys will craddle as much as they can but there are exceptions (Andrei out of California that won PAPA a couple years back abrely ever craddles) to me it's just a style. Noting a problem in the software and taking advantage of it just turns the competetion into a one shot rinse and repeat type thing (happened at the first Cdn's when they left extra ball on for IJ4 .. lead to hour long games in the finals). The fact that Lyman went nuts over the exploit shows that it is an error and was corrected ... the same could be done for craddling in multiball (have the flipper drop after x seconds up) but you aren't going to see that because it isn't considered a cheat but rather skill or method use it or don't.
I can understand your viewpoint but I don't think it fits into the general impressions of tournament players (not that I am one I'm not)

... and you "pros" don't consider this cheating?

It's not cheating ...

Technically, if the game is not broken I don't think it can be called cheating. Is it 'ethical' is another question. Was the game meant to be played like this?

To me it is similar, in principle, to something I noticed earlier this year when I was first introduced to papa videos and started watching expert tournament players (game play and tutorials). Certain players would consistently hold one or two balls on a flipper during multiball and knock around the loose single ball with the free flipper scoring 'multiball' points. While I don't call it cheating, I was extremely disappointed when I saw this. This as an affront to the concept of multiball. Where's the challenge in that? Ya, ya, I know... cradle separation when the balls inevitably all pile up... knowing when to let go just save the loose ball... reading the play to know when just the one flipper is enough... Sure, there's skill there, but keeping all balls moving is more challenging, and more fun.

In my recent TOPL experiences, I see this as well, and on occasion I have tried to force myself to play this way, just to level the playing field. But do I feel right about doing it? Nope. I feel I'm taking the easy way out, but that's just me

You are allowed to do whatever the flipper buttons, tilt settings and ruleset allow you to... but it's still a game to be enjoyed. I'm sure Bowen had a thrilling time racking up that score. I hope it was done only to illustrate a point.

P.S. And just because the tilt mech is broken doesn't mean you should move a game 2 feet sideways to save an outlane drain :mrgreen:

 

[Vengeance]

I'm sure Bowen had a thrilling time racking up that score. I hope it was done only to illustrate a point.

P.S. And just because the tilt mech is broken doesn't mean you should move a game 2 feet sideways to save an outlane drain :mrgreen:

Bowen did it because he could and he wanted to qualify and needed a good score, this was the safest way for him to do it. There is $10,000 on the line and you are paying $20 a pop to play. You do what you have to, same as any other competitive event.

That entry with that score was what secured his place in the final on Sunday:

http://papa.org/papa15/live/player-411.html (entry#1363)

and as a result netted him $300, so I say more power to him.

As for the tilt mech, if it's broken that is exactly what it means for the simple reason that if I don't do it, it puts me at a disadvantage over any other player who finds out the same thing and does do it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I play within the tilts, I have my tilts setup at home to what I consider an acceptable level of movement and what I find out on the tournament circuit.

If you don't want your machine moved set your tilt accordingly that is what it is for

As for multiball, the very first line that starts that video sums it up perfectly:

"In Tournament play all players should strive to score as many points as possible as safely as possible"

nuff said.

 

[Chris Bardon]

The main issue with No Fear is very similar to the ACDC issue, it's called "Jump Ramp All Day"

True, but isn't there more skill involved in hitting it consistently? Would you say the same thing about Dr Who, since if you're good enough you can just hit that loop shot all day too? I don't think the scoring is quite as good, but it's still a "repeatable" shot. What about games with a single overpowering strategy (like JM)? Even though it takes skill to be able to set up a scoring "exploit", does that make it a bad tournament game?

 

[Vengeance]

At the last league night at Nick's place, John put up 900 million on Dr. who buy doing nothing but spelling WHO letters. That is why Dr Who never shows up in tournaments, cause it is an incredibly boring strategy. Spelling who letters nets your 12 million per shot and then 120 million when you hit the sonic boom, and as long as you don't miss always returns the ball to the flipper.

Sure there is skill to hit it repeatedly but there is no risk in doing it. If it's on the right flipper shoot the jump ramp, if I miss the jump it returns to the right flipper where I try again, and again and again. The jump ramp also has such a huge entrance it's hard to miss and even if you do take a weak shot, it's got magnets to help propel the ball around and then Even if it's still weak, there is a one way gate that returns the ball to the left flipper. Shooting the Jump ramp is a no lose situation.

Also yes the spinner is also the reason that you never see JM in tournaments either.

A good tournament game is one that doesn't have a single overpowering strategy.

TZ is a perfect example in that everything it has to offer is balanced scoring. You can choose to go for multiball, or powerball, or modes/LITZ or a combination of all of them. There is no one over powering strategy.

Tron is another example. You've got the EOL jackpot, and 3 multiballs, plus the 2x scoring of the tron targets, so it's all about maximizing points stacking in multiballs, and ball control.

Now that the exploit is fixed ACDC is another machine. There is no one single strategy that works better then anything else. Yes there is war machine all day, but you have to be good at live catches, and war machine doesn't work well since it's unlikely you will be able to get the song jackpot as part of the multiball, so you'll want to tray and take advantage of that by bringing in more appropriate songs for the multiball.

I can go on for games that offer more then one over powering strategy for play.

Like the video said it's a tournament directors job to offer up games that provide a varying amount of strategy. I'm not saying these games aren't fun (I have a JM and a Dr. Who) but they just make bad tournament games.

The main issue with No Fear is very similar to the ACDC issue, it's called "Jump Ramp All Day"

True, but isn't there more skill involved in hitting it consistently? Would you say the same thing about Dr Who, since if you're good enough you can just hit that loop shot all day too? I don't think the scoring is quite as good, but it's still a "repeatable" shot. What about games with a single overpowering strategy (like JM)? Even though it takes skill to be able to set up a scoring "exploit", does that make it a bad tournament game?

 

[SquidVicious]

Actually Dr. Who was in the PAPA banks this year.

At the last league night at Nick's place, John put up 900 million on Dr. who buy doing nothing but spelling WHO letters. That is why Dr Who never shows up in tournaments, cause it is an incredibly boring strategy. Spelling who letters nets your 12 million per shot and then 120 million when you hit the sonic boom, and as long as you don't miss always returns the ball to the flipper.

Sure there is skill to hit it repeatedly but there is no risk in doing it. If it's on the right flipper shoot the jump ramp, if I miss the jump it returns to the right flipper where I try again, and again and again. The jump ramp also has such a huge entrance it's hard to miss and even if you do take a weak shot, it's got magnets to help propel the ball around and then Even if it's still weak, there is a one way gate that returns the ball to the left flipper. Shooting the Jump ramp is a no lose situation.

Also yes the spinner is also the reason that you never see JM in tournaments either.

A good tournament game is one that doesn't have a single overpowering strategy.

TZ is a perfect example in that everything it has to offer is balanced scoring. You can choose to go for multiball, or powerball, or modes/LITZ or a combination of all of them. There is no one over powering strategy.

Tron is another example. You've got the EOL jackpot, and 3 multiballs, plus the 2x scoring of the tron targets, so it's all about maximizing points stacking in multiballs, and ball control.

Now that the exploit is fixed ACDC is another machine. There is no one single strategy that works better then anything else. Yes there is war machine all day, but you have to be good at live catches, and war machine doesn't work well since it's unlikely you will be able to get the song jackpot as part of the multiball, so you'll want to tray and take advantage of that by bringing in more appropriate songs for the multiball.

I can go on for games that offer more then one over powering strategy for play.

Like the video said it's a tournament directors job to offer up games that provide a varying amount of strategy. I'm not saying these games aren't fun (I have a JM and a Dr. Who) but they just make bad tournament games.

The main issue with No Fear is very similar to the ACDC issue, it's called "Jump Ramp All Day"

True, but isn't there more skill involved in hitting it consistently? Would you say the same thing about Dr Who, since if you're good enough you can just hit that loop shot all day too? I don't think the scoring is quite as good, but it's still a "repeatable" shot. What about games with a single overpowering strategy (like JM)? Even though it takes skill to be able to set up a scoring "exploit", does that make it a bad tournament game?

 

[Vengeance]

Actually Dr. Who was in the PAPA banks this year.

Yea in C Division, where there isn't as much worry about those kinds of exploits.