CAD at .70

[Slam_Tilt]

Labour is worthless. Mods are worth some but not much. Condition of pin is king and what determines value. Its the end result that has value not how much you spent getting there. Its the same with everything. That is why that people that spend their time and money to customize a car will never see that money back when they sell. They would be lucky to get half.

The only reason HEP costs a lot is because you are commissioning someone to do the work for you. That labour will cost you. But buy a HEP pin and the resell and you will find out you won't get near what you paid to have it commissioned.

 

[brad808]

Discussions about price suck because so many disagree with each other. Well other than the fact that we all agree we want everything to be cheaper. Here's my opinion (which I know many disagree with): all for sale ads should be deleted after the sale and forgotten about.

"But they are a good point of reference"

Are they really? I think not. Mainly because people don't use them as a point of reference, they use them as hard fact on determining value. What a machine sold for in a particular condition, in a particular location, at a particular time, in a particular supply and demand is irrelevant to different circumstances. A current "price check" would seem more appropriate in my eyes.

It's hard to argue that the market today isn't different than it was even 1 or 2 years ago so how valid are those "for sale ad" assessments on value. When 5 people are looking for a particular title at the exact same time and then aren't any, then you all know what happens to the price. When nobody wants them anymore you know what happens then too. It's the same in every market and pinball isn't excluded.

"But he did nothing and is asking twice as much as he paid yesterday"
"But I spent 2000 hours buffing the legs "
"But I saw online in 1996 one sold for $400 in Australia"
along with the numerous other justifications of price when either buying or selling. To be honest it doesn't matter. None of it matters. What the machine is worth when you go to sell it is whatever that exact machine is worth at that exact time in that location. No more and no less. The condition, time, location, demand will be the deciding factor at that time. The day after it will be different.

As much as we would like Canada to be a separate pinball market from the states it's evident by the recent jump in prices that the US dollar definitely has an impact. The cost of replacing what you sell has shot up.

 

[Bally Boy]

any price discussion is just a pure waste of time.

Absolutely!!! but here we are, still talking about it.......

What about if John's EK was sanded down to bare wood and had a cabinet stencil repaint, new CPR back glass and playfield, all new boards, LEDs, LED score displays, etc. etc.

Still a $1200-$2000 Machine? Not really...

Brent is right on the mark, condition totally dictates price, there's no question.

Ok, yeah, what about labour? Everybody has heard this before - you usually get what you pay for. Counts here too. Anybody can re-decal a cabinet, touch up a playfield, etc. etc. Some peoples work is just better than others in my opinion.. I think it's a valid charge in some cases. Chris Hutchins and some others have made a pretty good living doing this... obviously there are people who, educated or not, are willing to pay for this level of perfection. I've seen Drano's work in person, it's exceptional in most cases and really worth something in the bottom line, definately more than the average guy. Why wouldn't he charge for this? Why wouldn't anybody who does exceptional work?

But to re-visit your original $1200 - $2000 for EK? That's opinion too. I wouldn't sell mine for $1000 over that top price, I guess I'm as un-educated a seller as John is a buyer.... when an average Eight Ball Deluxe Classic is sold at over 2K, and obviously has hot melt glue gun globs holding the metal wire inlane guides into playfield - all pricing opinions and ethics are out the window with me... and this goes back to my original post.

If the game sells - it's priced right, I reckon

 

[Slam_Tilt]

Ok, yeah, what about labour? Everybody has heard this before - you usually get what you pay for. Counts here too. Anybody can re-decal a cabinet, touch up a playfield, etc. etc. Some peoples work is just better than others in my opinion.. I think it's a valid charge in some cases. Chris Hutchins and some others have made a pretty good living doing this... obviously there are people who, educated or not, are willing to pay for this level of perfection. I've seen Drano's work in person, it's exceptional in most cases and really worth something in the bottom line, definately more than the average guy. Why wouldn't he charge for this? Why wouldn't anybody who does exceptional work?

He's charging for the condition his pin is in not the amount of work he put into it. He could have spent 2000 hours doing the restro but your not paying for his labour your paying for the final result.

There is a difference between commissioning a restoration and selling one that you restored for yourself. Take Drano and his White Water that, if I remember correctly from another thread, he went so far on his restro to even chrome the parts under the pf and in the cab. Of course the price for his Whitewater will be more than the average mint White Water because he went beyond the usual restoration. So it would command a higher price and deservedly so. But I bet he never got near the money he spent on restoring it. And the reason is because he restored for himself.

If Drano was commissioned by someone to do that restore then it would have cost more because Drano would charge for everything he spent and all his labour.

I have never liked ads when people say they want to get so much for their pin because they spent a 100 hours and had to replace some parts, or even worse, that they had to drive 1000 miles so they want to recover the cost of getting it. It's usually put in there to try to justify the high price they are asking. Leave that shit out and just describe the condition, put up pics to show the condition and put a price on it. And remember most people aren't restoring they are just saying they put in so many hours and its a shop job not a restro. I am not paying someone their time to get a game in clean and working order, I am paying for a clean and working pin.

 

[Bally Boy]

Yes - when you put it like that, I agree with what you're saying Brent .....but it's the old shell game. Condition is king - but older games can take some labour to get them to acceptable/top condition sometimes.

In this particular case I was thinking about machines that are between 10-30 years old and have had restoration to different major levels therefore translating into " above average condition". I agree, I don't need a chrome fuse holder..... I would probably not go to this level nor want to pay for it, but some people will and do.

I'd suggest stripping off old WPC cabinet decals once and then tell me labour is worth nothing.... but I know, not everybody cares how a game looks, if you want to find a cheaper non-restored game go for it, chances are you wont be paying much more for the nicer restored game in most cases in the end. If you can even find one of the same title. The supply vs. demand theory is also partly responsible. Those games just aren't out there these days.

 

[DRANO]

Absolutely!!! but here we are, still talking about it.......

What about if John's EK was sanded down to bare wood and had a cabinet stencil repaint, new CPR back glass and playfield, all new boards, LEDs, LED score displays, etc. etc.

Still a $1200-$2000 Machine? Not really...

Brent is right on the mark, condition totally dictates price, there's no question.

Ok, yeah, what about labour? Everybody has heard this before - you usually get what you pay for. Counts here too. Anybody can re-decal a cabinet, touch up a playfield, etc. etc. Some peoples work is just better than others in my opinion.. I think it's a valid charge in some cases. Chris Hutchins and some others have made a pretty good living doing this... obviously there are people who, educated or not, are willing to pay for this level of perfection. I've seen Drano's work in person, it's exceptional in most cases and really worth something in the bottom line, definately more than the average guy. Why wouldn't he charge for this? Why wouldn't anybody who does exceptional work?

But to re-visit your original $1200 - $2000 for EK? That's opinion too. I wouldn't sell mine for $1000 over that top price, I guess I'm as un-educated a seller as John is a buyer.... when an average Eight Ball Deluxe Classic is sold at over 2K, and obviously has hot melt glue gun globs holding the metal wire inlane guides into playfield - all pricing opinions and ethics are out the window with me... and this goes back to my original post.

If the game sells - it's priced right, I reckon

FWIW I just purchased an EK for $1300 and it's in "nice" shape. I also recently missed out on another for $1200 in slightly poorer shape... and I have friends who have looked at a couple that were a bit more "restored" in the $2K range.


I'm fairly comfortable using all of those as a fair assessment seeing as they were all in the last few months.

If your personal EK matches the example you described with totally repainted cabinet, LED displays, restored or repro playfield etc.. I'm sure someone who really wanted a spectacular EK would pony up more than $1K above my range... but that also takes your machine out of the running as a "typical example" doesn't it?

Or, maybe you just value the machine more than most? Either way, recent listing and sales would tend to confirm that I'm not too far off.

I've spent more than I should fixing up a game, and someone out there always wants that superb example regardless of market value, but I still don't believe that those can be used to bring up the value of an average machine.

Commissioned or not, a totally rebuilt machine by a skilled artist or hobbyist is a different animal IMO

 

[Bally Boy]

The next time you see any typical EK's locally for $1300 let me know - I'd take that deal every time. Even if I already had two folded and another set up. I love that game,

You missed my attempt at humour there Drano ( in case you didn't know, I do have a small EK collection at home - some of which is on display to my pinball guests ), I value that particular machine title more than most, and it's a personal issue.... I'm working on it...Lol. I was trying to be super obvious about it, I definately know it's not a $3000 machine in any member of this forums eyes. My game is not to the extent of the restoration I described in my example either. I was trying to make a point.

Here's another angle. What if you buddy John is a die hard EK fan ( like myself ), has a collection of EK stuff, buys everything EK?
If he got his grail EK for $5000 he might be OK with it, sure he overpaid, but he had to have it. It's all up to the buyer. Bally KISS seems to be another game that has been outta' sight for years price wise due to this same type of collector.

Also I don't feel I was so clear on Brent's issue with the ad description either, I totally agree I don't need to hear about the labour time invested in these games either, it's there to see.

I'm taking this way off the track..... how about that CDN dollar!!

 

[DRANO]

C'mon... Who cares about the dollar?
I want to hear more about your unnatural obsession with Evel Knievel

I've had some luck finding well priced EK on kijiji lately. Closing the deal in time was the challenge. I have a bit of a childhood thing with EK myself. My earliest Halloween memory involved me wearing his costume... Bell bottoms and all!

So what are you planning to do with all these EK Dan? Maybe line them all up and try and jump them with a rocket powered trike?

 

[Bally Boy]

C'mon... Who cares about the dollar?
I want to hear more about your unnatural obsession with Evel Knievel

I've had some luck finding well priced EK on kijiji lately. Closing the deal in time was the challenge. I have a bit of a childhood thing with EK myself. My earliest Halloween memory involved me wearing his costume... Bell bottoms and all!

So what are you planning to do with all these EK Dan? Maybe line them all up and try and jump them with a rocket powered trike?

Well. uh, mmmmm.




Yes.