Have prices gone too far?

[ZoomZoomBoomBoom]

Actually I believe the high priced secondary market is a very good thing for the industry on a whole.
Here's my reasoning;
My business has spent the last 14+ years selling collectibles and games. My take on the pin market is like that of any collectible market; the older stuff (machines) will keep increasing in value (as they are no longer making any) and the (very) new stuff will plateau and then drop. EM's will not be worth much as no one will want to fix them and they offer a minimal experience compared to newer machines. Machines with licensed properties will increase the most as it caters to 2 markets (pinball collectors and non-pinball collectors) Here's the catch though, while most products are manufactured to meet (or exceed) demand, almost every pinball machine made to this day can not meet the current demand. So every machine is essentially a limited edition, thus driving the price up. A couple of exceptions are Jersey Jack's GNR pin and Godzilla. Because they make so many "LE" versions of GNR, they are over supplying the market. Thus, as you can already see, the price drops. I think Stern will do the same with Godzilla. As the companies manufacture more machines to cash in on the high demand, the secondary used market will drop in price, which will actually hurt the new market as people will be afraid to drop the cash on a new machine because down the road they know they will be taking a hit.
So basically the manufacturers are going to kill the secondary market (by oversupplying and cashing in on it) and that will in turn kill the current primary market (newly manufactured machines) to a degree.

 

[mwong168]

I think current problem Stern has is they can't meet the demand hence them skipping a new game announcement last quarter so they can catch up on previous releases on the factory line. I heard there is/was supply issues for some electronics which also delayed production and they also had a flood last April too. I think few days ago a pic was posted and they are running Mandos

 

[pinballjah]

New JJP Toy Story, cheapest version seems to be $12k US. $15k US CE version sold out online in 15 minutes.

 

[Flipper Ripper]

New JJP Toy Story, cheapest version seems to be $12k US. $15k US CE version sold out online in 15 minutes.

In my opinion, the first impression was that it's JJPs worst game so far. Under delivered and over priced. Again back to the topic at hand, these companies sell out day one on a pin no one played and I'm looking at pictures in this week in pinball and the holes are off-centered, I see a lot of issues rising from the caboom ramp, lots of real estate taken up with an awkward ipad and 4 pop bumpers. Looks like a boring shooting game and sells out at record time and at record-high prices. I'm glad this is what JJP came up with, my money is safe from them for a loooong time with Godfather and Matrix being the next rumoured pins, I can ignore JJP for a long time.

 

[Monkeybug]

I am glad I have almost completed my collection and can invest my money in NFT and Cryptocurrencies now.

 

[Pins4ever]

If Toy Story 4 catches a new younger audience which I think they are trying to do; it will benefit all of us "older" collectors. If kids like it they will become Pinball players like us. Maybe it's not for everyone but that's the market.

The price is what it is and yes the manufacturers are squeezing the full values and beyond....

In the long run I agree; the older pins that are rare and not overproduced are going to be the most valuable.

 

[Corrie]

I am glad I have almost completed my collection and can invest my money in NFT and Cryptocurrencies now.

Hey at least some of my cryptos were up 50x before this recent 50% drop. I can't say the same about the money I have in traditional markets which are quite close to the same 50% drop crypto has seen.

Invest in real things that are useful, especially things that rich people like since they don't stop spending when the economy is down. And believe it or not pinball machines fall right into that category, although they might not be as useful as something like food or building materials.

 

[Pin_Fandango]

New JJP Toy Story, cheapest version seems to be $12k US. $15k US CE version sold out online in 15 minutes.

It sold out on JJP website, for the units the kept to sell themselves. The number of unit sold directly is and was unknown and nobody knows really how many they had. The rest were sold to distributors, whom they now have to resell. CE sold out, means absolutely nothing. Halloween was also sold out, look at that dumpster fire now?

Just more PR stunts to create the fear of missing out. Contractual obligations exist from both the RESELLER and Manufacturer to acquire a minimum amount of machines 'if you want to be and play in the big leagues'. You can't afford your allocation? then you cannot afford to sell out product, next!

So yes, it was sold out in their website, for the unknown units they kept the rest were already PRE SOLD to resellers (distributors) these people are now calling their client base and 'distributing' the CEs accordingly. Nothing new here.

The feedback on pinside on this game is atrocious and most people will not drop $23K cad in Ontario for a the most naked version of a JJP yet made.

So have the prices reached their top? of course they did, .75 points increase in mortgage rates in the states and more increases over here, with the cost of fuel over $2... You really need to live in your own 1st world bubble to not see that we are well into a financial crisis and our dollar is devaluating at a gigantic pace. Expect gas to keep climbing and become nearly unaffordable just like in the rest of the world. Most families in 3rd world countries spend the majority of their income in housing, food and fuel! go figure, this reminds me a lot of my younger days.

I grew up in 3rd world countries and this is not my first rodeo dealing with a devaluation, in fact, it is almost like I have trained for this all my life and the writing is on the wall. It is about to get uglier I think.

The real estate market is stangnant and prices have drop about 15% in less than a month, not to mentioned those who overpaid in hundred of thousands just recently.

Not everybody in this hobby is rich to keep things status quo and the resellers and factories will be feeling this soon after the influx of new buyers Covid created dissipates as they try to recover cash flow inundating the secondary market.

 

[roar]

It doesn't bother me at all to see the manufacturers charging more for their pins, I would much rather they find the ceiling and keep the profit than the resellers who've done nothing for the hobby profiting off of it. I think that is really the only way to cool the market or at least find the real ceiling.

Can JJP actually sell 5,000 Toy Story LE's and 1,000 CE's at those prices? If they can, wow, good for them. There can't be much meat left one the bone for the speculators at those numbers.

 

[Corrie]

It doesn't bother me at all to see the manufacturers charging more for their pins, I would much rather they find the ceiling and keep the profit than the resellers who've done nothing for the hobby profiting off of it. I think that is really the only way to cool the market or at least find the real ceiling.

Can JJP actually sell 5,000 Toy Story LE's and 1,000 CE's at those prices? If they can, wow, good for them. There can't be much meat left one the bone for the speculators at those numbers.

They seem to be selling fast but there are already like a dozen of them being flipped on pinside so who knows what the actual demand is. I think this happened with Halloween too. People were buying the pre-orders thinking they could sell them if they change their mind and now they can't even get what they put as a downpayment back. I think we might see the same with Toy Story, although it sounds like they have a bunch ready to ship already.

 

[kool1]

It doesn't bother me at all to see the manufacturers charging more for their pins, I would much rather they find the ceiling and keep the profit than the resellers who've done nothing for the hobby profiting off of it. I think that is really the only way to cool the market or at least find the real ceiling.

Can JJP actually sell 5,000 Toy Story LE's and 1,000 CE's at those prices? If they can, wow, good for them. There can't be much meat left one the bone for the speculators at those numbers.

I agree - You can see with GNR they didn't get to 5000 and prices are slumping on the resale. Many US distributors have them in stock.

No way Toy Story sells 5000 at $12K. Not a chance.

 

[kool1]

I am glad I have almost completed my collection and can invest my money in NFT and Cryptocurrencies no

I hope yo aren't serious..

 

[Fifty]

I think a lot of pin-people are waiting to see if JJP playfields have been corrected before considering this game.

Selling out in 15 minutes doesn't really mean much. How many units were available during that time? The same thing happens for concert tickets. Sellouts in 5 minutes for <insert band name here>, but in reality there weren't that many tickets to begin with. The tickets were allocated to AMEX and other front-of-the-line businesses before the general public even got a whiff of them. It's all just smoke and mirrors to fool people into thinking there is huge demand and they are going to miss out.

 

[WARLOCK]

I hope yo aren't serious..

That is pure classic Monkeybug "sense of humour"... love it.
Who else is serious enough to mine crypto ? other than at Bluffs Pinball... Summertime, so time for servers to rest...

This is an interesting thread gang. We don't price police here of course, and owners can do what they want with the objects that they own.
If you want to be taken seriously in pinball on pricing: buying, selling; the market "is what it is". And yet, many deals are still done offline to this day.

To new collectors and to old, like Wong says...
"If priced right": then it will sell, "If not": then it won't.

Speculators and flippers are free to do what they do as well.
It just doesn't indicate that the "buyers" will pay what they want.

 

[goodmanners]

I'm glad I got most of my collection completed when I did - missed a few games before prices took off. Oh well - would have liked a CV.

I finally have them all in one place and am just going to enjoy playing them. If prices drop I might pick up another pin some day. But not if it's over 9K. So for now I'm "out" of the buying market - new or old. Plus I have to fix some of mine - that never ends.

I'm happy for people who can buy a 20K pin but that isn't me. Maybe in a few years time I will jump back in.

 

[WARLOCK]

Prices are: (and always have been) what the market will bear.
Games will sell what they sell for, regardless of the asking prices.

 

[Flipper Ripper]

Prices are: (and always have been) what the market will bear.
Games will sell what they sell for, regardless of the asking prices.

I understand the concept of that theory, but I also don't understand how some people are completely financially dumb. I have friends who work in banks and they tell me how no one has money, yet everyone is purchasing million-dollar homes on 20/hr wages. Just because homes sell for million-plus, doesn't mean that people should be buying them. The market bears them I guess, but it's setting a lot of people up for failure. Who knows, seems like all this money is growing on trees somehow. I need to find this tree.

 

[WARLOCK]

The system is what it is.
The corps want you to spend.

Many of us here do not buy into that.
We spend what we have extra; on pinball.

 

[WARLOCK]

That is just me though.
I am an anomaly no doubt.

 

[Smokezz]

I understand the concept of that theory, but I also don't understand how some people are completely financially dumb. I have friends who work in banks and they tell me how no one has money, yet everyone is purchasing million-dollar homes on 20/hr wages. Just because homes sell for million-plus, doesn't mean that people should be buying them. The market bears them I guess, but it's setting a lot of people up for failure. Who knows, seems like all this money is growing on trees somehow. I need to find this tree.

People making $20/hr (even dual $20/hr incomes...) are not the ones buying million dollar homes. Not unless they've already got a significant amount of money saved / a house to sell that's got no mortgage on it. $20/hr is $39k a year. A million dollar house needs a 200k downpayment - you can't do anything less than 20%... the mortgage payment on that is $4269/month. Even at the some of the best rates you could get before rates started going up, it would have been around $3300/month. And that's before taxes. There isn't a bank around that's going to give someone a mortgage that chews up nearly 80% of the money they bring home just for the mortgage.

That's not to say that there aren't people that are completely financially dumb however... if a bank tells you that you can "afford" a $800k house, you really shouldn't buy a $800k house. If you do that, you really won't have much left over money every month to buy furniture for the new house, maintenance, cars, etc. Or... pinball machines!