LED's - Love them or hate them

[WARLOCK]

LED's - Love them or hate them?

Here is my piece, add on if you wish.

My apologies in advance if someone raised this subject before. I hit "search" LED and 200 hits came up on this site for LED's.
I am not re-reading all 200 before I post on this subject. lol

So, LED's. (For me) Not a fan mostly.

They look GREAT in Mario's WCS94 I must say. WOW!
Anyone who saw and played this pin @ the Ottawa Pinball Show in the tournament perhaps agrees.

LED's in my new TOM? Not so much. I will gut most of them out and return the pin (to) as it should be.

Same fantastic JPOP designer. I love both pins.

I guess you just never know with LED's.

 

[mwong168]

I'm not a big fan of LED in general on the playfield for inserts or GI but I do have LEDs in all my back glasses. I don't really do it for looks but more for functionality because it reduces heat in the head and less stress on the connectors and pins on the power driver board too. I've played a TOM with a coin taker kit and it is absolutely horrible and you lose track of the ball due to strobe effect when all the inserts flash or flicker at once. I mean it looks pretty in attract mode and the inserts really pop but damn near impossible to play.

 

[WARLOCK]

Exactly. Thanks Mike. Wong and I both agree on LED's.
I am not Switzerland in this one at all.......

However:

WCS94 was awesome... Mario did well with the purchase as apparently there was $300 in LED's in it alone.
I can't confirm that, because I don't buy LED's, ever...

Additionally:

The Black Knight Brock bought from me was exceptional with the LED's installed.

I am stunned at how good BK looked with LED's in it. Amazed... I won't do it on my BK that I kept, but it
simply looked fantastic.

That exact BK was also in the Ottawa Pinball tournament. Many people would attest how nice it was me
thinks.

 

[DRANO]

I'm on the fence.
In some games (usually the ones without crazy strobing lighting effects) I don't mind partial, or even full, LED coverage. I love the way you can accentuate insert colours and it can really help change the mood of a playfield (yes, I'm an artist).
However, when I do use them, I stick to the very basic 1-led ablaze models sold by Pinball Life. I only order anything from Cointaker if I really need power or impact in a particular spot beyond what the 1-led models can provide.
CT promotes their products as the brightest and best. I find that, with LEDs, less is definitely more.

I have 3 games with nearly full LED coverage. MM, IJ and WH2O. I think these games can pull it off and I'm able to create some pretty cool mood and feature lighting in a darker pin like MM.
But, on games like LOTR or TAF, I would never consider it.

My only other beef is how they turn on and off. It's very harsh or "digital". Standard bulbs have a soft on/off... like a smooth curve. LEDs are square wave... either on or off... No ramping in between. This often robs games with beautiful cascading effects. A classic example is the white water cascading topper. I went with LED for the simple fact that the 12v bulbs used in the topper are super hot.... but the harsher waterfall effect bothers me.
I recently bought a Grand Lizard from our mutual friend and, as you know, that game is seizure inducing with the CT super brights that the original owner installed


I've dropped them Into a couple of EMs as well. These games often suffer from poor lighting under dim inserts and the occasional red bulb under the special insert or saucer offers a nice pop. And, because the lights in these games don't animate (they're either on/off) it's an acceptable application for me... In moderation.

And, as Mike pointed out... the reduced load on the circuits is always a plus.

 

[spiroagnew]

Ya...I like them. I love how the light pops in a colour matched insert. All in moderation, though, for sure. I like using the SMD (surface mount diode) bulbs for back corner GI--those bulbs that are not directly seen by the eye. It really brightens up the farthest reaches of the game.

However, its frustrating as all hell when you get a ghosting issue. LED'd my FH playfield, GI and inserts, and wouldn't you know it, the "11", "55" and "12" inserts on the clock remain either constantly lit or aflutter with light as the other lights on the clock advance. Not a big deal with the "12" as it is a single red insert on the clock, and just went back to a 555...however, two 555s for the "11" and "55" look out of place, as I have colour matched the LEDs to the inserts--and a 555 bulb doesn't give the same colour. I LED'd Rollergames as well, a year ago with Pinball Life Ablaze bulbs, and I'm sad to say many of them are dim or failing completely less than a year later. Not happy with their product. I'm in the process of doing a partial job on Pinbot where I deem it appropriate using Comet LED's product. Great service from Art at Comet...gave me a call to thank me for my order and talk a bit of pinball, and also added some extra bulbs gratis that he knew would look good in the machines I had. Bulbs seem more durable and better quality from Comet vs. PBL Ablaze. Contacts on the 555s from Comet are more durable and don't need adjusting like the Ablaze....you'd have to fiddle with the Ablaze contacts multiple times to make sure they lined up in the sockets properly, and then pray they didn't rattle loose during gameplay.

My Wh20 came LED'd to the tits with Cointakers...and my eyes ache when I play, so I guess that means I need to take a few out?

 

[movingpictures]

WCS94 was awesome... Mario did well with the purchase as apparently there was $300 in LED's in it alone.

I had to skip over this game in the tournament because the lights were too blinding. :shock:

Suffice to say I am not a fan of LEDs in the slightest.

And after playing the new Star Trek, I hate LEDs more than ever.
That game actually gave me a headache with its 5-LED flashers.
Disgusting.

 

[Luckydogg420]

I wonder if age/years in hobby contribute to this debate? I'm almost 35, been in the hobby for 2ish years. I love LEDs, bright colour matched inserts. 89 flashers the make your brain go numb...

I'm not a fan of ghosting, or strobing but haven't had many issues with that in my games. For instance in BOP, (that my buddy had) the spaceship ramp insert light would be dimly lit all the time. You can easily tell if the light is on, but the ghosting was noticible.

It's true that LEDs suck in games that use dimming for affect, since they don't dim.

But in my old f14 I installed ct superbrights under the inserts, the game really poped, all my friends loved the LEDs over the incandescent but none of them have been playing for years.

 

[Chris Bardon]

In some places it can definitely work. I really like the LEDs that came in the inserts for my CV for example, since they add more colour to the game. They also look great in the X-Men LE, but that game was designed around the LED lighting, so I don't have problems with strobe. I did remove the GI LEDs on CV and Demoman (when I had it). CV just got way too much strobe in the inserts, and the last owner had done blue LEDs in demoman which just made the game way too dark. I'm still not sure what to do with my LOTR though-it came with the cointaker kit installed, and for the most part I like it, but I also have a dark basement. I haven't had an issue with it being blinding/strobing though, and I do like the colour changer on the DTR insert, and the backbox kit with the colour changers looks great, so I'll probably keep it as-is for now.

 

[REVOLUTION]

I love the POP that LED's bring to a playfield. That said, I'm not a fan of the SUPER BRIGHT LED's. That's just unnecessary. I'm also not a fan of cold white (except for the odd occasion where it fits the theme, like Tron).

Bottom line is, when it's done tastefully I think it can enhance the game, especially on dark playfields (Tron, STTNG, Shadow).

 

[bstock]

WCS94 was awesome... Mario did well with the purchase as apparently there was $300 in LED's in it alone.
I can't confirm that, because I don't buy LED's, ever...

WCS is the only game I own and I play it all the time and know it inside and out. Because of this I might be a little bit more picky than some. Overall, I did not like the way the LED's were done in this machine at the show. There were some things that I really liked, such as the LED's in the jets and the LED tube that came up in that area and ran along the ramp and lit up at certain times. I thought some of these effects were really cool.

I did not like the colour that was chosen to light the "build lock" inserts. In my opinion, these inserts should have been a super bright white. If I remember correctly, they were a bluish colour. The playfield was covered in SO many bright lights, and I felt these "build lock" inserts were quite over powered and looked dim in comparison. In my opinion, this is counter intuitive because lighting lock and playing multiball is THE strategy in WCS. For this reason, these lights should be the ones that attract your attention the most. I actually had to tell a guy who didn't know how to play the game that the main thing to do was shoot for those dull little triangles.

My buddies bought a Black Rose, and after playing it for a couple of weeks, he decided to completely outfit it with LED's. I think this game looks great with LED's. When the "Search for Treasure" mode starts, the light show is blinding, and I would not recommend it for anyone who is prone to seizures but I think it works with the game.

My opinion is that LED's have a place in pinball, and when done right certainly add to a game. For some games this might be one or two bulbs, in other games this might mean all of the lighting.

My two cents

 

[Menace]

I'm going to chime in here, only because of my background in electronics.

The issue that most if not all people have with LED's in pins is the fact the games were never designed to use LED's in the first place, and this is why we have the issues we have. Without getting too technical, LED's can mimic the "feel" of incandescent bulbs without all of the flickering issues as long as whatever circuit the LED is being used in is DESIGNED CORRECTLY! It's a completely different set of electronic "rules" that engineers must follow to utilize LED's correctly, and this cannot be solved in any of our games without a complete redesign (and possible software re-write), just a fact. (there will be no LED bulb that can overcome the design unfortunately)

That being said, there are some applications noted above where LED's can be used with decent results and moderation is the key. I only have one game now that is mostly converted to LED and I will be at the very least converting all the GI back to incandescent.

D

 

[mwong168]

Glad to see I am not the only one who hates games that are tricked out completely with LED and could induce seizures. I'm not crazy at the hot spots on some of my translites where some are worse then others but since it doesn't affect game play I don't really care. In regards to LEDs in playfields I normally try or do the following:

1) Any white inserts with Ablaze frost white single bulb because I want the actual insert to light up as white and not yellow from the incandescent.

2) Color match roll over in lanes which are buried near the very top of the playfield under a ramp and hard to see from player's perspective.

3) Color match pop bumpers if they are buried underneath ramps or not easy to access.

4) Any insert that is hard to reach I will LED or try and hope it doesn't affect game play. Fortunately the only case for me is the BAZZAR inserts on my TOTAN and I believe Doug or Bish added LEDs to this game which I removed except these. You have to remove the scoop kicker assembly to access some of these twist sockets and because the coil is so close the incandescent bulbs need to be replaced more often so I left the white LEDs in. Another scenario where I can see LEDs being a practical application is on STTNG because the under playfield subway assembly is huge and a pain to remove.

5) I've recently been experimenting with these PBL Ablaze 4-SMD-LED (Actual Product Code #abl_fucking_bright_wedge :lol in spot lights which face away from the player. I have them in the two spot lights above the slings on my Tron which really light up the playfield and in my Spiderman for each villian so you know for sure when you are battling them. The only downfall from his is from time to time they will come lose and fall out but a small dab of hot glue or even wedging some playdough or modelling clay from Dollarama might help with this.

I normally don't touch the GI on any of my games and the only exception I made was on my Demolition Man. I've seen many pictures of this game done over the top with all LEDs and said if I ever got one back I would try to do it tastefully and hope it doesn't affect game play. I did it in stages and the first thing I put were some frosted white at the ramp entrances which I really like. I quickly realized the rest of the game didn't look right so quadrant by quadrant I started adding frosted white to the GI and I think it turned out fine and very easy on the eyes.

The only other LEDs I used on my DM were the white inserts and the 4 main multi-ball inserts I used a different color to each one to add some colour which normally light up yellow from the incandescent anyways. I tried frosted white and even blue on the lock freeze inserts but they were a bit too distracting so I put back incansdescents. This is true for all the points I listed above, if the LEDs I install distract me at all then I put the incandescent back no matter how nice it looks or makes the insert "pop".

Also wanted to note that if you are really insistent on having LEDs in your games then I suggest you play with your lights on because it seems to make games a bit more bearable or else check out this LED OCD controller

http://ledocd.comuv.com/index.html

Here is some advice from a very wise man in regards to LEDS

You know what else transitions like incandescent bulbs?

INCANDESCENT BULBS

 

[luch]

For the spot lights . I use a dab of clear silicone on the bottom of the led so you won't see it. They never fall out again

 

[tim.sanderson]

I wonder if age/years in hobby contribute to this debate? I'm almost 35, been in the hobby for 2ish years. I love LEDs, bright colour matched inserts. 89 flashers the make your brain go numb...

There could be something to that. I'm 37, been playing pinball for a year and a half or so, and have been an owner for 7 months. I've said it before, and will say it again... I think all late SS/DMD games could do with a (partial at the very least) dose of LEDs. I like the intensity and colour of LEDs. I also like the on/off nature of LEDs. (no slow poke transitions for this cowboy) Ghosting is disliked yet tolerable, but flickering drives me nuts. So far I've only put LEDs less than 1/4 of my R911, but I've loved the results so far.
I've got a bag full of them, so I'll likely be adding more to the game soon.

 

[REVOLUTION]

Like it or not, incandescents are a thing of the past. Not just with pinball either.

 

[movingpictures]

Like it or not, incandescents are a thing of the past. Not just with pinball either.

Disagree.

Many "things of the past" are still produced, consumed, and relevant today.
eg. Vinyl records or pinball machines :lol:

The fact that Stern got in bed with Cointaker does not mean the end of incandescents.
Many purists will still prefer the "vintage" look and continue to swap out LEDs.

 

[Vengeance]

Many purists will still prefer the "vintage" look and continue to swap out LEDs.

You can't swap out LED's on the new Stern's as the LED are actual circuit boards and now socket based LEDS.

some of them are, but the majority of them are not.

My opinion on LED's has been hashed over so many times I don't feel like going over it again.

Suffice to say LED's can look good on a machine when a person takes the time to make sure pliability is not sacrificed for how the game looks.

Stern's implementation of LED's has not bothered me in the slightest thus far and the use of color changing ones they have used so far has actually been pretty good.

WOZ on the other hand is a seizure inducing mess, and some of the worst LED implementation I've ever seen.

 

[mwong168]

The fact that Stern got in bed with Cointaker does not mean the end of incandescents.
Many purists will still prefer the "vintage" look and continue to swap out LEDs.

More like went to bed with CHINA. The inserts on the latest Premium and LE games such as Metallica or ACDC don't use a bulb socket but a PCB about the size of a postage stamp that has a small LED mounted directly to it.

Now with Star Trek, even the Pros are coming with LEDs and I think I read somewhere that they are the same PCB LED boards too. Some people have also confirmed that you can remove the board and solder the wires to a socket. You also might not like Stern's choice of color too but man that is a lot of work versus just changing out a bulb from a socket. Good thing is Stern seems to be pretty good at sending out replacements for customers who have had some of these LED boards burn out already and the only place that sells a possibly replacement is pinbits and it isn't cheap.

http://www.pinbits.com/index.php?main_p ... dlmgpo5nf7

http://www.pinbits.com/index.php?main_p ... dlmgpo5nf7

 

[movingpictures]

I didn't realize STERN was pulling this crap on PROs as well.
I thought the board mounted LEDs were for PREMIUM / LEs only due to the advanced light shows and color changers.

If the LEDs are board mounted on PROs, I am ALL OUT on future NIBs.
Are you sure???

Total horse-pucky.

 

[DRANO]

Makes sense.
The cost of the PCB (to Stern) is probably not very different from the socket. It may even save them a few seconds on the assembly line for each one they install.

From the operator's perspective, stern is offering a feature that will virtuality eliminate the need for regular bulb maintenance and allow the machines to run cooler... keeping boards from cooking. Not such a great feature for the collector that may eventually end up with the machine once the LEDs are nearing the end of their life expectancy... but when does Stern REALLY ever thing about the collector?