Pinball Pirates and Profiteers (re: R&B kijiji)

[g-man]

Another disturbing trend I am seeing is how a particular game (not title) inflates in value by passing through the hands of a few collectors in a short period of time who have done absolutely nothing to them except over pay each time. This disrupts the market because now people who own that title now think because one person got it they can get it too, this is also known as the pinside effect :evil:

Man, the stuff that goes on at Pinside has me shaking my head. But I can't stay away. Whenever I feel like some good drama, I give it a go and usually I am not disappointed. There are some real gun-toting, capitalistic pigs on that forum ~ the kind that make our casual pin-flippers look like saints. I just can't resist the urge to comment on Pinside whenever I see some wanker post "Good price" or "This won't last long" on a machine that is probably 10 - 20% overpriced. I used to think I could never bring myself to buy another pin on FleaBay, but I think there is a greater chance of that happening than ever buying on Pinside. ( Yes, there are some good eggs on the site ~ I am speaking in general terms of course. )

 

[TwilightZone]

And this is why pin prices will continue to increase for some time. $2K is WAY overpriced for a R&B with issues. It could be had for $1,200 not that long ago.

Not that long ago being 2-3 years minimum.

I picked up my R&B more recently, and trust me when I say, if it is playable, it will be 2K+ based on condition. You might look at one for $1800, and it could be a good deal, but again +/- 10% is just a market game.

$2K is the new $1,500 :lol:

Sell it for whatever you can get. Doesn't effect me. I'm not your market. I have zero interest in a $2K R&B.

Seems every DMD game is now $2,200 regardless of game play. The games that were C titles when I started haven't improved with age. Available games have decreased and prices have increased.

And before you get all hot and heavy....notice I said "with issues." It used to be that games with issues sold for significantly less than working and shopped games. But now folks are willing to pony up the cash regardless....just to get the game. When I look at a game, if it has issues, I decrease the price. Simple as that.

Cheers,
Duane

 

[TwilightZone]

Man, the stuff that goes on at Pinside has me shaking my head. But I can't stay away. Whenever I feel like some good drama, I give it a go and usually I am not disappointed. There are some real gun-toting, capitalistic pigs on that forum ~ the kind that make our casual pin-flippers look like saints. I just can't resist the urge to comment on Pinside whenever I see some wanker post "Good price" or "This won't last long" on a machine that is probably 10 - 20% overpriced. I used to think I could never bring myself to buy another pin on FleaBay, but I think there is a greater chance of that happening than ever buying on Pinside. ( Yes, there are some good eggs on the site ~ I am speaking in general terms of course. )

Pinside drives me crazy. Every time someone posts a game, there is some idiot that says "looks good", "great price" when in fact it isn't a good price or it isn't in good shape. Check out the Police Force on Pinside. The game has fade and one guy comment the price seemed fair for the condition!

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ ... n-michigan

For starters, it's easily $400 too much even in this insane market. The game is a crapfest and overpriced at $1,200, but I could see it selling for that.

Cheers,
Duane

 

[DRANO]

I just thank God that I don't have any "must have" games left to buy.
Sure, I'll entertain the occasional game here and there, but the days of sweating every FS post and chasing down owners with the title I'm lusting after are gone... Mercifully!

Let the market do what it wants now.

Pinball is becoming an elitist hobby. No offence to anyone, but let's face it... almost every noob I run into is an investment banker, accountant or in some other high paying profession. In the past any average Joe could have a decent collection in this hobby.

Do we really imagine that these new collectors are going to go away?
Shall we assume that their tastes will remain with the latest sterns, or that a few of them may actually develop tastes for the "finer things" and continue to drive up value on BW titles and even some of the more sought after EMs?
And, should we also believe that some of their affluent friends and family won't see pins in their game rooms and also get bit by the bug?

Pinball may be in fashion again, but most commodities continue to raise in value over time (with minor adjustments along the way) but I know the days of a 49 cent liter of gas are gone forever, as is a $5K MM.
Not until most of us are dead or too old to care will we see a major dip in values.

 

[WARLOCK]

Buy what you want
When you want
Only if you want
If you can afford it

 

[frolic]

Pinball is becoming an elitist hobby.

I agree. I liked it better at 25 cents a game.

 

[TwilightZone]

IDo we really imagine that these new collectors are going to go away?

Yes, they will. These are "fair weather" collectors. Their tastes will eventually change and the market will correct. When I look at today's prices, I'm truly amazed. When I tell my non-pinball friends that my NIB Spiderman cost $4,600 they are stunned. My pinball buddies are stunned as well, but they realize it's actually now worth more than I paid LOL! Eventually sanity will return to the hobby!

Cheers,
Duane

 

[WARLOCK]

I dislike feeding the fire, however; Outside of the Pinball collectors on forums, a new reality still approaches.

1) Pinball has barely hit the mainstream yet. (But it is on the cusp of doing so - and it likely will soon enough.)
2) Pinball is a relatively RARE commodity in numbers of collectibles, compared to other collector consumables. (mostly since the mid 1990's forward)
3) Pinball prices are outstripped in sales dollars volume by collector's cars, and art purchases, but not by many other collectibles in size/volume/price.

All collectibles have their cycles. I make no predictions. EM's, SS's and DMD's, are all different forms of collectibles. Each will have a different shelf life.

It will be a rollercoaster over any given time frame.
That I guarantee.

 

[Honey Badger]

Man, the stuff that goes on at Pinside has me shaking my head. But I can't stay away. Whenever I feel like some good drama, I give it a go and usually I am not disappointed. There are some real gun-toting, capitalistic pigs on that forum ~ the kind that make our casual pin-flippers look like saints. I just can't resist the urge to comment on Pinside whenever I see some wanker post "Good price" or "This won't last long" on a machine that is probably 10 - 20% overpriced. I used to think I could never bring myself to buy another pin on FleaBay, but I think there is a greater chance of that happening than ever buying on Pinside. ( Yes, there are some good eggs on the site ~ I am speaking in general terms of course. )

My absolute favorite one I read on pinside is "man if this was closer, I would be all over it"....shut the hell up and get the game delivered if you really want it!

 

[Honey Badger]

Yes, they will. These are "fair weather" collectors. Their tastes will eventually change and the market will correct. When I look at today's prices, I'm truly amazed. When I tell my non-pinball friends that my NIB Spiderman cost $4,600 they are stunned. My pinball buddies are stunned as well, but they realize it's actually now worth more than I paid LOL! Eventually sanity will return to the hobby!

Cheers,
Duane

Duane, you have been telling me since I started in this hobby that the market will correct soon...I am still waiting :lol:

 

[spiroagnew]

Re: Pinball Pirates and Profiteers (re: R

Its like all the designers and programmers love to remind us..."Pinball is a commercial medium!" and "We weren't making these games for people to put in their basements!". An odd dichotomy--on one hand its a player's hobby (people helping people and buying it for the joy of owning) and on the other its an operator's commerce rooted in business where the highest earner wins. I guess the pirates are channeling their inner profit-driven operator?

(Aside: Stern has abandoned the above claim, as they are without question making pins for people's basements (commercial hobbyists?). The proof is that these pins don't seem to hold up well in the wild. Tim Arnold has refused to buy any new Stern pins for the Pin HOF in Vegas because of their paper Mache-like build quality...but I don't think the loss of a sale or two to Mr. Arnold will hurt Stern any...nor will it force Stern to beef up build quality.)

 

[frolic]

We are on the cusp of a technology shift in pins.... even the latest Sterns, with their colour changing LEDs make other games look dated. I do suspect over the next few years regular dmd games will lose favour.

 

[Luckydogg420]

Re: Pinball Pirates and Profiteers (re: R

Its like all the designers and programmers love to remind us..."Pinball is a commercial medium!" and "We weren't making these games for people to put in their basements!". An odd dichotomy--on one hand its a player's hobby (people helping people and buying it for the joy of owning) and on the other its an operator's commerce rooted in business where the highest earner wins. I guess the pirates are channeling their inner profit-driven operator?

This is true. The commercial router/operator wants to make a buck. They won't care about the hobby market. A 2k R&B Is worth it if it can make 2k on route and then sell it for the same price

 

[mwong168]

Duane, you have been telling me since I started in this hobby that the market will correct soon...I am still waiting :lol:

I've been told this too but if you want to get in the hobby today and have fun you just have to bite your lip at some of the current market rates or else the game you want will slowly get out of reach and only be a pipe dream. I wish I got into this 5-10 years ago when you had to sleep over buying a $1000 Judge Dredd :lol:

 

[spiroagnew]

Re: Pinball Pirates and Profiteers (re: R&B kijiji)

We are on the cusp of a technology shift in pins.... even the latest Sterns, with their colour changing LEDs make other games look dated. I do suspect over the next few years regular dmd games will lose favour.

I try not to be a snob...but it's hard. Playing a game like Wh20 or Roadshow then playing a Stern game is a completely different experience. It's like driving a 1970 Chevelle versus a 2010 Nissan Versa (I happen to own both). Both will get you where you want to go, but one feels more beefy and solid, not to mention more fun to drive. Moral of the story (?): Stern games are our "daily drivers", while older DMDs are the "Sunday drivers" that we fawn over and worship. Not to sell a Stern game short...it can be enjoyed as well as any other. However, the DMD market is like the classic car collectors market...I don't see a price drop anytime soon. This benefits the profiteers. So god bless those that I have met in this "commercial hobby" that approach it with dignity, honour and helpfulness.

 

[mwong168]

I try not to be a snob...but it's hard. Playing a game like Wh20 or Roadshow then playing a Stern game is a completely different experience.

I use to be like you had you met me over a year ago because I bought my very first Stern game (HUO TSPP) on Father's day in 2011 and the first thing I noticed and felt was how clunky it was compared to my Bally/Williams games at the time. What bothered me right away was the humming I would hear when I would cradle a ball. I call Menace aka Doug right away asking if there was something wrong with my game and he said it's normal. I then asked can I replace it with a B/W flipper mechanism because it sounds and feels like crap! He probably laughed inside when he said "No!" :roll: I find the older Stern Whitestar games such as SM, TSPP, LOTR, or RBION all have this clunky, cheap feel and shots don't seem to feel as smooth but if you are able to look past all that these are some amazing titles. The more recent Sterns running SAM like Tron and Xmen feel much better and broke my "No S-turd" rule and bought my first NIB last August which was an Xmen Pro. They do hum a bit when you cradle but right now I can't see myself parting with Tron.

As time goes on games you said you would never buy and/or play you end up doing or the best one is one pin in my collection is all I will ever want :lol:

 

[TwilightZone]

I'm the opposite of most collectors. I've been collecting for over 10 years and I'm bored of the Bally/Williams games. I find the Sterns have much better rules and are more fun to play. In a HUO environment, the build quality of Stern is fine. In fact, I have less issues w/my Sterns than the Bally/Williams games. Alot of that has to do with age, of course.

Cheers,
Duane

 

[Honey Badger]

All I can say is I cannot blame Tim Arnold for no longer buying Stern pins. His last was ACDC and he does not have Avengers or Metallica. If you go to the POF and look at Iron Man, Tron, ACDC, Rolling Stones and Avatar they are all whooped way worse than any BW pin from the 90's. I agree with Duane's statement above.

 

[REVOLUTION]

All I can say is I cannot blame Tim Arnold for no longer buying Stern pins. His last was ACDC and he does not have Avengers or Metallica. If you go to the POF and look at Iron Man, Tron, ACDC, Rolling Stones and Avatar they are all whooped way worse than any BW pin from the 90's. I agree with Duane's statement above.

I'm curious if he replaced all the black rubbers with white ones. If not, then that black rubber dust covers the PF real eff'in fast

Great discussion, guys

 

[spiroagnew]

I'm curious if he replaced all the black rubbers with white ones. If not, then that black rubber dust covers the PF real eff'in fast

Arnold was very anti-black rubber in a TOPcast interview a few years back. Stressed that he killed all the black rubber on a game before it even hit the floor of the PHoF.