Pinball Pirates and Profiteers (re: R&B kijiji)
- Thread starter spiroagnew
- Start date
movingpictures
Active Member
frolic said:
2 solid points.
1 - All the Stern pins are in a row at the entrance and definitely get the most play.
Many are played for 8+ hours a day, continuously.
2 - While I don't know him personally, I will say that after meeting him in Vegas and watching many videos, he sure does seem to be on the cusp of a burnout. Get to the PHOF while you can is my advice; it is heaven. And stay at the Rivieria hotel for the 24/hr satellite location. Hell you can drink and smoke while playing...what a flashback.
Well, and I'll throw one other point in. I've not been there, but from everything I've read, he is woefully understaffed. In the case of a pin, an ounce of prevention IS worth a pound of cure, so I suspect with the beating those Sterns get, they're just left to run until they can't run anymore.
Anyhow, all of this is his prerogative, I just wouldn't put much weight into his assessment of the build quality of Sterns when the above points are being made.
Anyhow, all of this is his prerogative, I just wouldn't put much weight into his assessment of the build quality of Sterns when the above points are being made.
mwong168 said:
Clay's just a dumb American......
This is a joke. Awhile ago he made some comment on dumb Canadians.
His points are actually quite valid, but again....in a home environment I think the build quality is fine with most games. I am concerned about Avengers, in particular, though as so many folks have had issues with the Hulk arms. Shame as I really love the game, but I would hesitate to buy it for a few years, just to make sure the Hulk holds up.
While I say the build quality is good for home, there are always exceptions. I'm not really pleased with the plexi used in mini playfiels found in the AC/DC LEs and Premiums. The fact the plexi cann't be removed is an issue to me. I don't really care, though, as I will never own the game. Not really thrilled with the theme, although the game is really fun to play.
Cheers,
Duane
Re: Pinball Pirates and Profiteers (re: R
I think Clay hit it right on the money. The LE features / quality is what you used to get from Stern pre Ironman, but now you're paying almost double what you used to which is what turns me off.
D
I think Clay hit it right on the money. The LE features / quality is what you used to get from Stern pre Ironman, but now you're paying almost double what you used to which is what turns me off.
D
movingpictures
Active Member
Re: Pinball Pirates and Profiteers (re: R
but but but now there's a numbered plaque and a real backglass! :lol:
Menace said:
but but but now there's a numbered plaque and a real backglass! :lol:
Well, there's no getting away from the fact that Stern was going out of business at those price points that everyone loved.
Even now, none of the upstart companies even try to deliver a $5k machine (with the exception of skit-b but they don't count since it is a basement op, and to be determined if they are sustainable).
Even now, none of the upstart companies even try to deliver a $5k machine (with the exception of skit-b but they don't count since it is a basement op, and to be determined if they are sustainable).
Honey Badger
Well-Known Member
frolic said:
And I agree, but the difference with the other guys like JJP is you're paying the $7500 and getting a much higher build quality product vs Stern.
D
Monkeybug
Active Member
frolic said:
Are we? Stern has admitted in the past that they have no intention of moving away from a DMD and they will stick to the standard "Italian bottom" of all their pinballs (2 outlanes/2 inlanes). Creativity be damned!
I once read something about the basic evolution of pinball that has always stuck with me. About every 10 years, there was a revolutionary shift in games, that made the previous generation look old. This forced operators to upgrade or face extinction. In 40's, there were flippers. In the 50s/60s there were new items like multiplayer, varitargets, rototargets etc..., in the 70s/80s it was solid state with ramps, multiball, multi-level, speech, alpha-numeric, magna-save. In the 90's it was DMDs and more complex rules. In 2000, it was P2K.... then bam.... the floor of the pinball world dropped out. WMS closed, following all other major companys, leaving on the remnants of the newly rebranded Stern (previously Sega/Data East). Some claim it was the amazing success of WMS DMD's that killed them. Operators could still run their DMD's and not look dated 10 years later and they were no longer forced to upgrade.
Stern being the last game in town had no illusions of pushing the pinball industry forward but focused on staying afloat and made whatever sold. No more original themes. No more experiment/unique layouts. Everything was conservative and I don't fault them for trying to stay afloat in a bad market at the time. Not until Jersey Jack, did we see any forward thinking. JJP has not quite lived up to its expectations but it has raised the bar a bit in new pinball development. I always wonder how pinball would be today if the powerhouse of WMS/Bally had kept producing P2k titles.
Now back to the topic of profiteers and money..... The hobby has always had profiteers but with the Internet and the current wave of uneducated/newbie buyers (with deep pockets who "must have") I think they have flourished. Limited supply along with a (sometimes artificial?) demand is the recipe for price spiraling out of control. Prices will get corrected eventually but no one can say when. I look at prices of jukeboxes and EM's to realize that there is a finite life span on these things. Eventually we all get old and realize these pins are better converted to a retirement fund.
Monkeybug said:
+1 for "artificial demand" and "limited supply". I think we all have stories of seeing a FS thread/kijiji ad and thinking to ourselves "Wow...Title X don't come up too often, I have to act fast!"...only to have two more identical Title X's on the "market" in the following weeks. Ergo, the original Title X sells, and those other Title X owners see dollar signs..."If that guy can get THAT MUCH for his game, I can get at least that for mine!"...so the cycle of the "in demand" game begins.
The moral of this thread is that we will all just have to wait patiently for meegis to bring his R&B to market so that we don't have to deal with this kijiji flip-flop.
(Also, do I win the monthly booby prize for including both an alteration and a rhyme in my subject title? If no booby prize, I'll settle for an "Italian Bottom"...I dated a girl with one of those once, wasn't too clean...)
Monkeybug said:
meegis
Well-Known Member
Re: Pinball Pirates and Profiteers (re: R
Maybe I'll list it for $4500 and go "fishing"
Any takers?
Maybe I'll list it for $4500 and go "fishing"
Any takers?
jooky
Member
I wanna hear more about those craigslist/kijiji scammers/spammers. You know! The ones that are all "contact us first if you're selling!", or the "free removal of pinball machines from your home!" (wow how nice of them!). Who ARE these people?! Do these ads even work? I mean... they must to some degree for them to diligently post ads everyday!
I bet it would make for a great documentary:
"Joe is 45 and from Toronto. Every morning, he wakes up, fires up his computer and posts the same ad on kijiji. "WANTED: Pinball machines! Contact us first!" the ad says. There are usually not many responses but this morning is different. An old lady has sent Joe an email. "Hi there! Saw your ad! My son has moved away to college and we have people coming in to reno our basement! He has this darn big pinball machine down there and we need it gone! Its called Medieval something or somesuch, theres a mini castle in it. Can you pay us a decent price for it and help us get rid of it?" Joe smiles. Today is going to be a good day."
I bet it would make for a great documentary:
"Joe is 45 and from Toronto. Every morning, he wakes up, fires up his computer and posts the same ad on kijiji. "WANTED: Pinball machines! Contact us first!" the ad says. There are usually not many responses but this morning is different. An old lady has sent Joe an email. "Hi there! Saw your ad! My son has moved away to college and we have people coming in to reno our basement! He has this darn big pinball machine down there and we need it gone! Its called Medieval something or somesuch, theres a mini castle in it. Can you pay us a decent price for it and help us get rid of it?" Joe smiles. Today is going to be a good day."
Honey Badger
Well-Known Member
I have to ask.
Why would you buy a game if you didn't want it? Why do the pin police always have to comment on what game they want is too expensive? For the guys who say shipping from the states and border crossing doesn't inflate a pins price, then why aren't the games from Italy being sold for the price paid in Italy? Same rules apply... Do they not?
Yes we all know games aren't the same price as they were 6 months ago let alone 3-5-10 years ago.
If you don't agree with the price don't buy it... it is simple. If you want it buy it if it is in your market.
Anyhow I don't give a shit who buys or sells whatever. I'm glad a business minded person can buy a machine for $500 and sell it to someone else for $1000 or $10000. This is called capitalism. It is how we all have jobs and get paid.
But the collectors please ban together and hoard your machines... So you can profit when you feel cash is worth more than your holy grail in your basement. Oh btw all you collectors I want to buy your IJ's for $2000 like I paid for mine years ago. Cause you wouldn't ever consider making a profit on your machine. Puhleaaaase. Spare me the bs.
Oh And I Import games from the US for a profit. LOL
Why would you buy a game if you didn't want it? Why do the pin police always have to comment on what game they want is too expensive? For the guys who say shipping from the states and border crossing doesn't inflate a pins price, then why aren't the games from Italy being sold for the price paid in Italy? Same rules apply... Do they not?
Yes we all know games aren't the same price as they were 6 months ago let alone 3-5-10 years ago.
If you don't agree with the price don't buy it... it is simple. If you want it buy it if it is in your market.
Anyhow I don't give a shit who buys or sells whatever. I'm glad a business minded person can buy a machine for $500 and sell it to someone else for $1000 or $10000. This is called capitalism. It is how we all have jobs and get paid.
But the collectors please ban together and hoard your machines... So you can profit when you feel cash is worth more than your holy grail in your basement. Oh btw all you collectors I want to buy your IJ's for $2000 like I paid for mine years ago. Cause you wouldn't ever consider making a profit on your machine. Puhleaaaase. Spare me the bs.
Oh And I Import games from the US for a profit. LOL
Menace said:
Well, not trying to be contrary, but the jury is still out on if JJP has a viable business. From reports, the cost of producing his machines are near beak-even.
I think the big difference between nowadays and the good old days is economies of scale. If they produced thousands more of every machine they could get by with less meat on the bone.
g-man
Member
I'll have a "go" at a couple of your points Woody. Maybe more people will chime in later.
First,
You answered this question yourself in the very first line of your post. You began with "I have to ask." There it is. When people get a sense that something wrong, unethical, confusing, frustrating, confounding, or whatever is going on, they often find an overwhelming need to get involved. Usually in the form of expressing an opinion. There, that one was easy.
Next.
I don't think you've taken your comparison far enough. Sure, all the pins that come from Italy the first time probably deserve a little premium for shipping tacked on. In this sense, it is like paying the delivery fee when you buy a new car. BUT, let's say a Farfalla is now in Toronto and a guy 5 miles away and another guy 400 miles away both want it. The guy 400 miles away gets the pin for some reason and has to spend $150 on gas, rent a trailer or whatever and ends up paying $200 to pick up the machine. It is not right for that guy to now consider his Farfalla to be $200 more valuable. If that machine has been sold to the other guy, it's value would have remained the same. That's usually the scenario that people are arguing about.
This is a very popular line on places like Pinside, but it is chalk full o' holes, IMO. So, what exactly is "simple" about it ? I agree that not buying it is simple. All I have to do is keep my hands in my pockets. What is not so simple, is not having FEELINGS or OPINIONS about it, and this is what is really being discussed here. An example. You enjoy a restaurant. You go there every week. Next time you go, you notice the prices have doubled. But you enjoy it so much, you grumble a bit but decide to keep going. A few weeks later, the prices have doubled again. The restaurant is still busy, so you have to make a decision....do you still want that hamburger now that it is $18 ? At some price point you will probably stop justifying it and stop going, but was it "simple" ? No. Did you grumble a whole bunch along the way ? Of course. Just like you probably grumble a little bit more every time the price of something you use and/or enjoy goes up in price, especially if the inflation appears needless. It's far from simple. One day the rich will own everything. The grumbling helps to slow the pace.
Here I must say, I simply don't believe you. I think in your world of buying/selling pins, you enjoy how things have transpired. But you are also a victim of capitalism, and daily, I might add. The same theories that allow you to eek out your living are working behind the scenes to make you pay more for gas, food, and tuition. I do not sleep better at night because capitalism is flowing freely in the streets. The endgame of capitalism is not pretty. If you lived long enough to see how it all unfolds, you would not like it. And personally, I have found that 9 out of 10 "business-minded" people that I meet are not likeable people.
Okay, I'll leave something for someone else.
First,
Woody said:
You answered this question yourself in the very first line of your post. You began with "I have to ask." There it is. When people get a sense that something wrong, unethical, confusing, frustrating, confounding, or whatever is going on, they often find an overwhelming need to get involved. Usually in the form of expressing an opinion. There, that one was easy.
Next.
Woody said:
I don't think you've taken your comparison far enough. Sure, all the pins that come from Italy the first time probably deserve a little premium for shipping tacked on. In this sense, it is like paying the delivery fee when you buy a new car. BUT, let's say a Farfalla is now in Toronto and a guy 5 miles away and another guy 400 miles away both want it. The guy 400 miles away gets the pin for some reason and has to spend $150 on gas, rent a trailer or whatever and ends up paying $200 to pick up the machine. It is not right for that guy to now consider his Farfalla to be $200 more valuable. If that machine has been sold to the other guy, it's value would have remained the same. That's usually the scenario that people are arguing about.
Woody said:
This is a very popular line on places like Pinside, but it is chalk full o' holes, IMO. So, what exactly is "simple" about it ? I agree that not buying it is simple. All I have to do is keep my hands in my pockets. What is not so simple, is not having FEELINGS or OPINIONS about it, and this is what is really being discussed here. An example. You enjoy a restaurant. You go there every week. Next time you go, you notice the prices have doubled. But you enjoy it so much, you grumble a bit but decide to keep going. A few weeks later, the prices have doubled again. The restaurant is still busy, so you have to make a decision....do you still want that hamburger now that it is $18 ? At some price point you will probably stop justifying it and stop going, but was it "simple" ? No. Did you grumble a whole bunch along the way ? Of course. Just like you probably grumble a little bit more every time the price of something you use and/or enjoy goes up in price, especially if the inflation appears needless. It's far from simple. One day the rich will own everything. The grumbling helps to slow the pace.
Woody said:
Here I must say, I simply don't believe you. I think in your world of buying/selling pins, you enjoy how things have transpired. But you are also a victim of capitalism, and daily, I might add. The same theories that allow you to eek out your living are working behind the scenes to make you pay more for gas, food, and tuition. I do not sleep better at night because capitalism is flowing freely in the streets. The endgame of capitalism is not pretty. If you lived long enough to see how it all unfolds, you would not like it. And personally, I have found that 9 out of 10 "business-minded" people that I meet are not likeable people.
Okay, I'll leave something for someone else.