Pinball World Prices
- Thread starter WARLOCK
- Start date
To be honest, I'm longing for the days when a pinball machine was worth a quarter of a dollar...or fifty cents, depending on the era you grew up. The MMR appears to be a boon for the hobby, but it actually kind of left a lingering bad taste in my mouth...can't explain it...
I'm not a Stern guy or a NIB guy, and now I can add that I'm not a boutique guy too. Cannot justify the prices in the hobby. Some may call sour grapes...and interpret that since I can't afford or am unwilling to spend big dollars on such an animal I dismiss them completely....which is not the case. I think there are a lot of people like me that can't afford to be a part of this rich man's hobby that there will always be a demand for late-SS and DMD era games (OR affordable alternatives). Hopefully the Euro container prices reflect this at some point, but I don't think they do a very good job of reading the market.
Just as there was a generation of older folks that swore by "cheaper" EMs and never got the appeal or the price of the newer DMDs, I guess I'll be that way too with late-SS/DMD games, but I don't expect those prices to bottom out anytime soon. Quite a wrench has been thrown in things...now the '90s DMD era games I covet are ALSO now part of the NIB/boutique movement. Is MMR considered a boutique pinball, too?
Good pinball is good pinball...but just like everything, price is a barrier to be able to enjoy it.
Looking forward to having Scott and Drano decompress a bit after their Expo hangover and hearing their musings on the subject...
I'm not a Stern guy or a NIB guy, and now I can add that I'm not a boutique guy too. Cannot justify the prices in the hobby. Some may call sour grapes...and interpret that since I can't afford or am unwilling to spend big dollars on such an animal I dismiss them completely....which is not the case. I think there are a lot of people like me that can't afford to be a part of this rich man's hobby that there will always be a demand for late-SS and DMD era games (OR affordable alternatives). Hopefully the Euro container prices reflect this at some point, but I don't think they do a very good job of reading the market.
Just as there was a generation of older folks that swore by "cheaper" EMs and never got the appeal or the price of the newer DMDs, I guess I'll be that way too with late-SS/DMD games, but I don't expect those prices to bottom out anytime soon. Quite a wrench has been thrown in things...now the '90s DMD era games I covet are ALSO now part of the NIB/boutique movement. Is MMR considered a boutique pinball, too?
Good pinball is good pinball...but just like everything, price is a barrier to be able to enjoy it.
Looking forward to having Scott and Drano decompress a bit after their Expo hangover and hearing their musings on the subject...
makes no difference to me or my plans. I still love to play pinball today as much as I did last week.
If anything, if there's a market correction, that probably is a net positive to most of us, except those of us that had a handful of the most expensive titles.
If anything, if there's a market correction, that probably is a net positive to most of us, except those of us that had a handful of the most expensive titles.
websherpa
Active Member
I blame it on the new 30 something's that are buying houses with ultra low mortgage rates ( I remember when they went up to 16%+), and squeezing in a few extras for their "man caves." If they have children their probably not out of diapers yet and haven't started costing hem an arm and a leg and eating them out of house and home yet. :lol:
Also, two income families are the new norm, we have more cash and less time ( no one is buying cottages anymore, for example). Essentially, they don't know he true value of a dollar yet.
But also, being a nostalgic sort, perhaps wages and income and inflationary reality have now moved beyond me.
Also, two income families are the new norm, we have more cash and less time ( no one is buying cottages anymore, for example). Essentially, they don't know he true value of a dollar yet.
But also, being a nostalgic sort, perhaps wages and income and inflationary reality have now moved beyond me.
luch
Super Member
As long as NIB's keep going up in price , all pinball machines will increase in price . We are talking about a few 1,000 units for world sales, in the grand theme of things compared to vehicle production this is peanuts.
It was also a remake of the most popular pin of all time. These types of re-issues can probably only be done for a very few titles, after that it isn't worth it.
Reminds me a bit when Star Wars special edition was released in 1997 and was the #1 movie again.
Reminds me a bit when Star Wars special edition was released in 1997 and was the #1 movie again.
tim.sanderson
Active Member
All I can say is that I am very happy to be buying/fixing/playing my thousand dollar machines. To me all that a re-re (re-release) means is that I'll get to play more of a particular machine. However, I do feel for anyone who's recently purchased a MM above the $8000 MSRP for MMR.
websherpa said:
According to this, it looks like I'm shouldering the blame here, fellas. Its all on me! I liked it better when we were blaming Mike/Mark/Jeff Uttley.
I'm not convinced the prices of used games will come down that much. Initially I thought the folks buying the repro MM might put some games up for sale, but now I'm not sure. I think we may see prices stabilize which is a good thing. Prices cann't go up for ever.
I'm also not convinced MM will drop in price big time. I think it will come down to a reasonable level -- maybe $10K. Just look at the classic car world. An original is always more than a repro even though the repro is newer.
I think the real impact will be the new market. If I was Stern, I would be $hiting bricks. Folks only have so much disposable income. And 1,000 people just spend a large chunk of disposable income. For those that buy NIB, I think the majority buy one a year.I realize some can buy more than 1 NIB a year, but realistically I think one is probably the average. So that means Stern just lost 1,000 sales.
Maybe, just maybe Stern will start listening to the market if people aren't so damn busy buy their watered down product. Stern keeps reducing the quality and increasing the price. I have, in the past, been a HUGE Stern supporter and I've had enough. The product is getting so watered down, I don't even know if I want to buy the newer games at HUO prices. Plastic aprons, pegs instead of legs, clamps for the lock down bar and now good bye to the fantastic clamping system. Then add the coding issues where you need to wait a year before you know if the game is decent or not. And in spite of this crap, people have continued to plunk down their money on LEs????? And the latest is now $9K?
I think Stern is really going to need to step up their game
Better quality and better rules. If I had $8K to spend right now, it would not be on a ST LE. I get a better quality game (better build quality), a "complete" game (no code) issues, and a timeless theme with MM.
Cheers,
Duane
I'm also not convinced MM will drop in price big time. I think it will come down to a reasonable level -- maybe $10K. Just look at the classic car world. An original is always more than a repro even though the repro is newer.
I think the real impact will be the new market. If I was Stern, I would be $hiting bricks. Folks only have so much disposable income. And 1,000 people just spend a large chunk of disposable income. For those that buy NIB, I think the majority buy one a year.I realize some can buy more than 1 NIB a year, but realistically I think one is probably the average. So that means Stern just lost 1,000 sales.
Maybe, just maybe Stern will start listening to the market if people aren't so damn busy buy their watered down product. Stern keeps reducing the quality and increasing the price. I have, in the past, been a HUGE Stern supporter and I've had enough. The product is getting so watered down, I don't even know if I want to buy the newer games at HUO prices. Plastic aprons, pegs instead of legs, clamps for the lock down bar and now good bye to the fantastic clamping system. Then add the coding issues where you need to wait a year before you know if the game is decent or not. And in spite of this crap, people have continued to plunk down their money on LEs????? And the latest is now $9K?
I think Stern is really going to need to step up their game
Better quality and better rules. If I had $8K to spend right now, it would not be on a ST LE. I get a better quality game (better build quality), a "complete" game (no code) issues, and a timeless theme with MM. Cheers,
Duane
TwilightZone said:I think Stern is really going to need to step up their game
Agree 100% with everything you said.
Stern MAY increase their quality, but you can be damn sure the cost will be passed on to the buyer. Also expect any further reissued game to jump in price too...demand is there, might as well exploit it from a business perspective. Interested to see how PP's MMRs boards hold up. Time will tell.
I've concluded that Stern is stuck creating $5k games. You will never see them take a huge leap, because the Pros would not be able to maintain the $5k price point. They are the only company trying to make a $5k pin. And you have to admit most of their Pro models are pretty compelling. No one is holding a gun making anyone buy an LE.
That $5k price point seems very important to them, and they sell a ton of Pro models.
If they dropped the Pro line, then they'd be freed to experiment, but that could be catastrophic to their business.
Because no other company is even attempting a $5k Pro model, I don't see Stern changing... ever.
That $5k price point seems very important to them, and they sell a ton of Pro models.
If they dropped the Pro line, then they'd be freed to experiment, but that could be catastrophic to their business.
Because no other company is even attempting a $5k Pro model, I don't see Stern changing... ever.
Chris Bardon
Well-Known Member
One other variable to consider is that the days of getting "beater" games seem to be pretty much over, as just about everything is being bought/sold by collectors now. Back in the day, an op could buy a game new, put it out and make its money back, so if they got something out of it afterwards, all the better. They got an old, busted game out of the warehouse, and someone got an opportunity to bring it back to life with a lot of new parts and sweat equity. I'm sure if you went back 6 or 7 years, prices were a whole lot lower, but the amount of work you had to do to get a machine back up and running was also a lot higher. Not to say there aren't still project games out there, but the majority of games that get bought and sold seem to be in at least good playing order.
websherpa
Active Member
Chris Bardon said:
This is true and probably of equal effect on the market as the newly arrived "30-something" buyers. (No offence guys, I was 30-something once too, and just jealous now - wait until you reach mid-life and start realizing that your time here and earning power is suddenly limited by the need to take the occasional afternoon nap.... :lol: )
I distinctly remember a time when I was visiting operators towards London and the North West parts of Ontario and they were "just" clueing in to the fact that the warehouses of machines I saw were actually starting to be worth something again. If I had money back then I could have come home with a dozen titles, instead of the one or two I could afford. Those games are gone now, the operators retired, liquidated and plucked clean - of everything except Golden Tees - (and happy with the cash).
Until the recent new boom in used Pinball collecting (of which I was admittedly a reborn latecomer) , many of the operators were storing pinballs and arcade machines because it cost more to throw them out than to just throw them into the back of a barn or shed. And although the operators had recouped their investment, they hung on to the machines because they just could not bear to throw them out, and no one really wanted them anymore (not necessarily because they foresaw any boom in the economy or demand for them in the future).
frolic said:
Bang on! The LE price-point is NOT a reality for most home-pin-owners (maybe 1 every 5 years). The $5k price-point is about what the market can bear for the majority of sales. There will always be people (collectors/hobbyists/investors) that will be able to afford the boutique LE pins but that isn't the majority of the world market.
The only (minor at this point) concern I would have is that the boutique pins will take away money from STERN to the point that they will have to cost-cut even more or raise their prices to make up for lost sales. I mean $8M potential dollars just went to PP that was potentially ready to invest in a possible STERN product. That certainly should get the attention of their sales/marketing folks.
Interesting times! Wish I was uber-rich!
Honey Badger
Well-Known Member
What is going to happen is all A-list titles and some LE's will stabilize around seven or eight grand it won't go higher than that because there's too many available now. The B and C DMD titles will rise drastically in the next couple of years to 3 to 5k depending on title because anybody new entering the hobby will be looking to get a DMD and many can't afford to seven or eight grand.
movingpictures
Active Member
cdnpinballer
Member
- Nov 15, 2012
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websherpa said:
For what? NIB price increases? I don't think so! I don't know any 30 something's out there buying NIB's. Well, unless there is some other factor to how they got their money but that's an exception. It's all you old geezer's who are cashing $$$ in on your old Bally / Williams collections who are the problem. You guys cashed in on the newbs of 2011 who were probably geezers themselves because who else has the cash to buy an $8K AFM from Ebay (remember that stated most of the pinflation on that title) and then drank the Stern / JJP NIB koolaid a bit too much and got greedy pushing the market to an all time high and then they come out with a remake of MM because the numbers worked and now all the B/W fanboys who were cheerleading like crazy are crying in their cornflakes.
The 30 something who may stretch to get one of those old B/W may have been in the hobby a while and are selling the lesser games to consolidate. I've sold over a dozen SS and EM pins so I could recycle the cash into routed examples of LOTR and TAF for example. Whereas you geezers sold off your AFM's and MM's to go and buy WoZ or The Hobbit or MET or ACDC etc...etc...