Vengeance's Introduction

[Vengeance]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

No because the difference is none of those things you mentioned are worth more then the reward of just playing multiball.

Getting goals lit is a crap shoot at best, getting the roll overs is not something anyone is ever going to shoot for, I get goals from missed shots to striker that dribble into the the upper scoop.

Your talking about making tons of shots to maybe do something, all of which take the ball out of the control of the player and not taking into account the fact that if you drain you lose your progress on any of the ultra modes. For mulitball I only need to make 6 shots:

Stamina
Skill
Spirit
Speed
Strength
Scoop

for lighting multiball at no point is the ball out of my control.

Everything else you mentioned are nice to haves, if I happen to get a goal and can bring in an ultra mode so much the better, no way am I'm going to bother with cities, they are worth nothing unless I make it all the way to the end.

The lions share of points is in mulitball.

So I make 5 shots, then spend the rest of the time going after the scoop, if while going after the scoop I get a goal so much the better.

Then after mulitball it's 5 more shots, the striker hole is always lit for building toward multiball and it isn't until the 3rd mulitball where is actually starts moving the shot off the left ramp to the point that I need to make more shots, but again it's just more shots to the striker hole, I never want the ball out of control.

All of it just so I can get back into the same multiball I just played, with no extra risk or reward for doing so.

In BSD all of those things I mentioned are important, unlike WCS where everything you mentioned is just fluff, something if I get great, but not something anyone is going to bother actually going after in a tournament.

For WCS, it changes the order of the build targets after the first multiball somewhat so doesn't that help? It seems like it will make you walk around the table before getting to Final Draw. And then for final draw, at least for me, I can spend a bunch of time (usually a bunch of games ) shooting for it and never getting it, walking away with not much. I see the guys in the tournament videos doing the same - isn't that similar to what you're saying about BSD? You've walked around the table (couple of ramps, couple of strikers, couple of goals, maybe an orbit, kickback target if you've wasted it), activated Final Draw, and walked away with peanuts. Also, do you risk going for more goals for more bonus and activating ultra modes before multiball? If Spinner and Jets is running, do you risk it if you're not making Final Draw that day? Is that the risk vs reward you're talking about? And then if you run up a big bonus due to the Goals, Ultras, Cities, do you risk tilting while struggling with Final Draw and again walk away with nothing. Seems like a similar thing you're describing with BSD, but I'll defer to your experience.

 

[goomba]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Thanks for the explanation. I think I get it now.

From Bowen's explanation it sounded like you needed around 250 million in the A division and 350 in the B division to be in the points which seems achievable with just some goals and Ultra points. That made me think it might be a viable choice. Single mindedly going after a Final Draw in light of those stats seemed like a mistake but you'd have to know ahead of time that WCS scores are going to be low. And I guess everyone is going for the win and not just points.

Thanks again. I look forward to your next post.

 

[mwong168]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Thanks again. I look forward to your next post.

I think your WCS94 stock just went down :lol:

 

[goomba]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Thanks again. I look forward to your next post.

I think your WCS94 stock just went down :lol:

No way. The way I see it I got a pinball designer's best game - great layout, fun for the beginners and guests, but still tournament worthy. It's good to see what a competitive player like Vengeance thinks of it and what the thought process is, but it's also one of Bowen's picks if he had to choose one. I think the soccer theme hurts it a bit in North America, but that's great for people who want to get it.

It's hard to beat that "GOAL!" feeling right after the first plunge. I like how the center shot is variable due to the goalie and it's great to dink it in off the post with either flipper. All the shots feel good to me. Now when I step if front of other machines they are strangely quiet and bare - no moving goalie or spinning ball. Maybe I'll change my mind as I get more experience and time with other machines but I lucked out (thanks Scott ).

 

[Vengeance]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Thanks for the explanation. I think I get it now.

From Bowen's explanation it sounded like you needed around 250 million in the A division and 350 in the B division to be in the points which seems achievable with just some goals and Ultra points. That made me think it might be a viable choice. Single mindedly going after a Final Draw in light of those stats seemed like a mistake but you'd have to know ahead of time that WCS scores are going to be low. And I guess everyone is going for the win and not just points.

Thanks again. I look forward to your next post.

High score the last time WCS was in PAPA was 840 Mil

Now 840 Million is a really low score by standard WCS comparison.

But that WCS had a hair tight tilt, kick back off by default, lightning flippers, no rubber on the inlane/outlane posts and no outlane posts.

It was absolutely brutal, any missed shot meant almost instant drain, every half ramp drained down the center.

You can't compare the two,at PAPA you are lucky to get one mulitball, when I play on a normal WCS I know my score is somewhere between 4 Billion and 7 Billion I forget, and you end up playing like 5 - 10 multiballs total it's a marathon of just chopping wood.

Going after ultra modes would be suicide, you could get your first goal, but then what, no way you are going to actually try and lite a second one.

Ultra modes like I said are ncie to haves, if goal is lit, I've got a cradled on the right flipper, sure I might take a pot shot for a goal and see if I can bring something in, but no way if it's not lit am I actually going to try and get it lit again so I can actually bring in an ultra mode.

 

[goomba]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Nice, sounds like a brutal machine.

Ok, more questions about WCS strategy (sorry ). If kickback is off, do you go for it right away? If so, you then need 8 shots to multiball (kickback, 5 skills, 1 lock, final draw)? Is that considered a lot in these circumstances?

Another thing just occurred to me. Given that you only get one multiball (if lucky, as you mentioned), should you really go for it with balls 1 and 2 or should you spend those on Goals, Cities, Ultras? The reason I ask is that WCS has a pity multiball in the Striker hole on ball 3 (at least on my machine) - if I don't get multiball at all, on ball 3 I can hit Striker which is fairly low-risk. The advantage of getting multiball through Final Draw is advancing ranks so that the jackpot is bigger, but if you score a bunch of goals on balls 1 and 2 your rank should be just as high so that nullifies that advantage. This approach seems to result in an average number of multiballs closer to 1 (since striker is easier), and in a higher score at the end of the game since the person that got the 1 multiball on balls 1 or 2 will have no other Goal, City, Ultra points. Or am I crazy

 

[Vengeance]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Striker award for multiball will never happen on a tournament game.

Come out to the Brawl Fro All:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1669

If you want to try your hand and see how real tournament games are setup.

Nice, sounds like a brutal machine.

Ok, more questions about WCS strategy (sorry ). If kickback is off, do you go for it right away? If so, you then need 8 shots to multiball (kickback, 5 skills, 1 lock, final draw)? Is that considered a lot in these circumstances?

Another thing just occurred to me. Given that you only get one multiball (if lucky, as you mentioned), should you really go for it with balls 1 and 2 or should you spend those on Goals, Cities, Ultras? The reason I ask is that WCS has a pity multiball in the Striker hole on ball 3 (at least on my machine) - if I don't get multiball at all, on ball 3 I can hit Striker which is fairly low-risk. The advantage of getting multiball through Final Draw is advancing ranks so that the jackpot is bigger, but if you score a bunch of goals on balls 1 and 2 your rank should be just as high so that nullifies that advantage. This approach seems to result in an average number of multiballs closer to 1 (since striker is easier), and in a higher score at the end of the game since the person that got the 1 multiball on balls 1 and 2 will have no other Goal, City, Ultra points. Or am I crazy

 

[REVOLUTION]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

I *sincerely* think this should be in it's own section, where these games are split alphabetically into their own individual threads... otherwise this this one thread here is going to become a maze of discussion. For example, the current discussion is on WCS.. and IDGAF about WCS

Just my thought. While I am the one that started the board, I don't claim this board as my own -- this board belongs to everyone, so whatever the majority wants is cool with me.

 

[DRANO]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

I would tend to agree. The desire to "fill" existing sections is secondary to having good content that is easily navigable IMO

If there are sections that don't get used or populated, maybe that deserves a separate discussion and some consolidation can occur down the road.

 

[Slam_Tilt]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Best to have individual threads. That way if someone wants a review or discuss a certain game they can start a new thread with the game in the title. Once Adam get to doing a review of that game the title can be edited adding '- Reviewed' and his review inserted as top post.


That way we can discuss WCS or BSD and once Adam reviews it the thread will be 'WCS - Reviewed'. Or something like that.

 

[nics135]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Will there be a Big Buck Hunter Pro review soon?

 

[tim.sanderson]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Will there be a Big Buck Hunter Pro review soon?

IT'S TERRIBLE.

Review written.

(but to be fair, I only have Playdium's example to go by...)

 

[Luckydogg420]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Really? I had fun playing big buck hunter.

 

[jooky]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

In the spirit of today's announcement, any chance you could give your thoughts on MM vs AFM and why you prefer one over the other? By most accounts they're virtually the same game.

 

[Vengeance]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

In the spirit of today's announcement, any chance you could give your thoughts on MM vs AFM and why you prefer one over the other? By most accounts they're virtually the same game.

The layouts are identical but the gameplay is vastly different.

Short answer is MM is a repetitive snore fest from a playablity perspective but has a great theme with great toy integration which is why it's sol loved. But you can literally beat on the castle all day and rake in a huge score. Even when you don't the game boils down to just making the same 5 shots over and over again, it gets really repetitive really fast.

AFM on the other hand is widely regarded as one of the best tournament games, the choice of strategies available are numerous and the risk vs reward in those choices is always very apparent. It makes playing the entire game worthwhile and making strategic choices important, something that MM completely lacks.

 

[tom_454]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

I really enjoy reading Adam's posts as he approaches this from an entirely different perspective (competitive) than I would. I play purely for fun - I care more about completing modes & seeing what happens next than I do about my overall score. I rarely even look at the score when I play (maybe that is why I suck at OPL).

I kind of approach the game with a "I wonder what will happen if I do this?" attitude. Perhaps that is why the scoring issues of TOTAN and JM never ever bug me. Even if I was good enough to exploit them I would avoid it as it might take away from the game. That is why I only read rulesets when I am really stuck about how something works and haven't managed to figure it out after endless hours of playing?

The fun for me is in the journey and less about the destination I guess.

I like the different perspective and I always learn stuff. Great thread.

 

[bstock]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

Looks like it's been over a week since we've seen a review of a game. I think we're due!

 

[Honey Badger]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

AFM requires Conquer Mars to get to the wizard mode...not Attack Mars

 

[Vengeance]

Re: Pinball with a Vengeance

AFM requires Conquer Mars to get to the wizard mode...not Attack Mars

True, you have to finish it

 

[mwong168]

Alright, I'm glad to see that Adam has his own exclusive section on PBREV now and I've pulled each game analysis to it's own thread. I tried my best to move out all the relevant post to the proper game that way if a bunch of us are discussing about say Medieval Madness and you don't give a shit you don't have to scroll or skim past it. Please feel free to bring up old discussions as I am sure Adam will be watching for comments on games he has reviewed in the past.

I have also a few stickies for the game index which will hopefully be more useful as more games get analyzed and created a thread where people can post requests which Adam can choose to entertain or not depending on his schedule and free time.